Baseball 2012: Florida over Kansas City, 4-2

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:54 pm

(I'm tired of my predictions for these threads ending up with one team not even making the playoffs, so I will predict that two somewhat up-and-coming teams get to the goddamn World Series. Even though the safe pick is Anaheim over the Cardinals or something.)

Anyway, let's begin the 2012 season.

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Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:45 pm

Always remember: the worst writing in the world is from Grantland

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/809 ... n-youkilis

But Red Sox fans I think maybe love Youkilis a little more than other teams love their version of this guy.

Oh Boston fans, you are always such special snowflakes.

Bugs · Post by **Bugs** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:18 pm

THE SAWX LEAD THE LEAGUE IN GRITTY WHITE GUY BEHAVIAH! NO ONE DISPUTES THIS!

I am just glad MLB.tv offers a monthly subscription option so I can cancel in June when Toronto settles into their inevitable, happy little two-games-over-.500 rut for the rest of the season. With the Jays biting it and the moves the Bills have made this offseason, I'm more excited for football in June than I've ever been.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:40 pm

I mean, four guys from the starting rotation getting injured... ok. Clearly they had no luck to begin with. But all it would have taken was money to get Darvish, and they didn't post enough. And Darvish looks plenty healthy.

Prince Fielder I wasn't that shaken up about, once I saw the deal Detroit gave him. But it was clear that we needed another pitcher, since the kids were 2-4 years away. It's been clear since Molitor left that we needed and continue to need a DH. (Ben Francisco started at DH today.)

Anthopolous knew the team needed those things too, and the constant fucking cheap-ass nature of ownership has ruined another year.

Lawrie, Rasmus, Bautista and E3 sure is a nice way to start a ball game, however.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:00 pm

Before the season started, everyone knew the Blue Jays needed a LF, DH and two starters to grab a playoff spot. Those are the easiest positions in baseball to fill.

Well, it's August and the team still needs a LF, DH and two starters.

I think AA has done a terrific job. He's the best GM in the game. But every fan and pundit knew the holes the team had and nothing was done to address them. The team has the exact same holes for next year. Now, eventually those holes will be filled with the draft selections AA has made. If the team doesn't add a single free-agent, it probably makes the playoffs in 2015 and 2016. But Christ, if there was even a slight bit of correction between market size and salaries for this team we'd have meaningful August and September baseball.

The plan for 2012 specifically, I guess, was to hope that two pitchers emerged. They could have even been Drabek and Hutch. They probably would have been if they didn't get hurt. The plan was to hope that Lind would suddenly wake up and realize that he will be out of baseball starting in 2014 if he doesn't work harder. Left field... er, was just written off. I guess the hope was that Rasmus would hit like a LF in center.

So, this organization is going to get shit on when they don't fill the obvious holes in the team, regardless of how well certain people like Anthopolous, Farrell, Bautista and so forth are doing in their particular roles. The message the commissioner's office gave by not including Toronto the shitty town lottery for extra draft picks was to grow up, quit whining and quit giving the fans conditions and homework before spending a little more and instead invest a more revenue back into the fucking team.

When your merge the gaping chasm -- the giant fucking gulf between the team is spending and what they ought to spend (NOT what they theoretically could spend... what they ought to spend) with the fact that the holes are the easiest ones in baseball to fill with free agents, the fans have every right to be enraged. And yet the crowds have been pretty great this year.

Again, Anthoplous has done amazing work and it is almost inevitable that the team is headed for a decade of good times... eventually. But holy shit, grabbing a one-year rental of an arm for $12 million next season isn't going to cause every single asset owned by Rogers to spontaneously explode in a firestorm of devil semen. I'd like to see 2013 with a little less invested in "hoping."

The Happiness Engine · Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:58 am

A differing view!

I think the argument in that post is kind of a bad one. (Well, one that is put forward by most fans) is that ownership isn't spending enough. AA is actually a pretty good owner. He's cheep yes. But at least he's trying to build a young team. He's basically doing exactly what the TB Rays did (strip and rebuild) and not spend too much money until they were really in contention. There is some cost benefit there. There isn't a 12$mil rental arm out there right now. Nor is there really a good DH or LF on the market. So why spend the money when its not going to get you what you want? Plus, what will that do this year (or even next). IF you get EVERYTHING that ICJ wants in his article, that gets you 4-5 wins? Its not enough. I would much rather have had the Mets have held on to Jason Bays contract money until they found something better. Toronto fans need to suck it up and have some patience, the rest of that team is SOLID and going to be so for a long time.

Don't get me wrong, if Toronto was 1-2 games out, and they needed a good arm or a LF, then its a different conversation. But we are talking about a team that needs depth and to get some guys that can contend first. THEN you go out and buy the rest of your championship. 4 years from now, when Toronto is in contention again we will be having a much different conversation about how 'patient and well done' that system is.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:36 pm

The Happiness Engine wrote:A differing view!

I will happily destroy this post.

I think the argument in that post is kind of a bad one.

Of course it isn't. The Jays need a DH, LF and two starting pitchers and the ownership with the most money has the 27th payroll in the league.

(Well, one that is put forward by most fans) is that ownership isn't spending enough.

Just for the record -- Yu Darvish was on the open market in the off-season. The Rangers bid around $55 million. The Jays bid around $35 million. Everyone knew that if you wanted to get this guy, you'd have to spend around what the Red Sox did for Dice-K.

So why did the Jays bid so little? Because ownership asked Anthopolous to guarantee that Darvish would be worth the money and wouldn't bust. They wanted -- in baseball! -- a GUARANTEE.

I say the following all the time on drunkjaysfans.com (where I originally made that post) but not on JC: the executives who work at Rogers Communications work in monopoly or nigh-monopoly-like conditions. They do *not* understand what it is like to work in competitive environments and meritocracies. Every wriggling sycophant they promote upwards internally has not worked in a place where they have to face real competition. As a result, they are all fundamentally unqualified to be making any sort of decisions involving baseball.

This hurts Anthopolous because, although he is a talented and clever general manager, he can't fucking guarantee anything in baseball. There is one man who could satisfy the childish and laughably inexperienced requirements of Rogers Communications when it comes to spending money on salaries, and that man is Biff Tannen. (And even then, not until the second movie.)

So Rogers ISN'T spending enough. Not only do they want guarantees on big contracts, they have guys like Paul Beeston saying that they won't give out contracts longer than five years. What the fuck?

AA is actually a pretty good owner.

Alex Anthopolous is not the owner of the Toronto Blue Jays.

He's cheep yes.

There is no evidence that Alex Anthopolous is cheap in either his personal or professional life.

But at least he's trying to build a young team.

Yes, as general manager he is building a young, controllable team.

He's basically doing exactly what the TB Rays did (strip and rebuild) and not spend too much money until they were really in contention.

Right. But my arguement is that Rogers Communications is the wealthiest owners in baseball, and it is therefore beneath them to spend like the Tampa Bay Rays.

There is some cost benefit there. There isn't a 12$mil rental arm out there right now.

I -- what? Right now? Well of course there isn't right now.

Here are some pitchers that were signed in the off-season that would have made a difference for the 2012 Toronto Blue Jays:

Edwin Jackson, 1 year, $11 million.
Hiroki Kuroda, 1 year, $10 million.
Joe Saunders, 1 year, $6 million.

And there are at least a couple more. I'm not going to look them up right now. Maybe they didn't want to come to Toronto... OK. OK. WELL in that case, the richest owners in baseball could maybe top the offers those guys got.

Nor is there really a good DH or LF on the market.

I am going to ignore the claim that there were no good DH or LF options available in the 2011-2012 off season go, because it seems like whoever wrote this thought I was talking about right now.

So why spend the money when its not going to get you what you want?

The Jays were 3.5 games out of a Wild Card spot a couple weeks ago, and that was with Bautista & Morrow getting hurt, Romero pitching like shit, Adam Lind playing like shit and Kelly Johnson having fallen back down to earth.

If the Jays had filled two of the four holes everyone knew they had, they'd be playing meaningful August baseball.

Plus, what will that do this year (or even next). IF you get EVERYTHING that ICJ wants in his article, that gets you 4-5 wins? Its not enough.

I would humbly submit that adding 5 wins to a team that was 3.5 games out of a wild card spot would have put them in contention for the playoffs.

Toronto fans need to suck it up and have some patience, the rest of that team is SOLID and going to be so for a long time.

Toronto has gone 19 years without a playoff appearance. I don't think patience is a problem.

But we are talking about a team that needs depth and to get some guys that can contend first.

Depth is not a problem. Rajai Davis playing left field, David Cooper playing DH and a rotation that features JA Happ and
Aaron Laffey due to injuries. Those guys ought to be your depth guys. Instead, they are starters.

THEN you go out and buy the rest of your championship. 4 years from now, when Toronto is in contention again we will be having a much different conversation about how 'patient and well done' that system is.

Well, right. In 4 years all the kids Anthopolous drafted will be up and it is almost inevitable that they will be in the playoffs. But my entire point is that there is nothing stopping ownership from spending more now on 1 year contracts to fill holes and giving us exciting baseball now instead of in 2017.

Nothing stopping them, except they are crying poor.

(2017!!! At least I will be able to take my flying car to the Dome when the Jays contend again.)

I think that when MLB announced a package of extra draft picks for small market teams and refused to include Toronto in the mix, even though their payroll was 27th, it was a fine "Fuck you" from the league to Rogers.

Anyway, I'd probably sound like a retard trying to talk about someone else's team myself, so I hold no grudges here.

The Happiness Engine · Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:30 pm

This was an attempt to get a friend of mine to talk to you about baseball instead of yammering constantly about the Mets at me nonstop.
It...failed badly. Because instead he wanted to talk to me about how wrong you were until I drown him out by screaming SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP in the office.

Oh well, I tried. I'm going to say you're right mainly to spite him.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:46 pm

Ah Christ! I didn't know he was a friend or co-worker of yours. I thought it was some random a-hole on the Internet. Well, that's embarrassing.

(I actually thought it was someone from one of the Blue Jays blogs, and you had found that comment. People on Blue Jays blogs hate me. One thing I've discovered that Toronto natives despise is when people use the same tone to speak to them that they use on others. The entire fanbase is the single greatest example of dishing it out and not being able to take it.)

(I hope the Mets beat the Yankees in interleague the next hundred times.)

The Happiness Engine · Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:12 pm

From your view, it IS some random a-hole on the Internet. No apology needed!

I did get a, "Well, if I knew you were going to post it I'd have spent more time on it." but fuck a guy who yammers about some guy and that other guy for 25 minutes to someone who's interest in baseball begins and ends with, "yes, that is an interesting game. I like the part where they try to hit the ball."

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:50 am

Tell that guy I apologize! I really didn't mean to come off like that. I am sitting here with my head in my hands because a fellow baseball fan that knows his shit thinks I am a cunt.

Just tell him this part, maybe? "ICJ from the Internet apologizes: he thought you were a fellow Jays fan."

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:51 am

(That's kind of a middle finger to other Jays fans, but FUCK THEM.)

(Except Bugs, from this place.)

Coworker · Post by **Coworker** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:56 pm

This is Happiness Engine's Baseball loving coworker. He's basically bullied meinto responding to all this. Re-reading it, its a bit long, but here goes.

No need to apologize. I usually lump people who post on 'sports blogs' in with the people who call into sports radio during rain delays. Clearly, this is not that kind of place.

I don't pay close attention to the Blue Jays, so I'm sure I'm missing some key pieces of this, that you get because your a fan. Feel free to rip this apart too. We can argue about baseball on the internet for the next 5 years, and I'll see you in TOR for the 2017 Blue Jays/Mets World Series. (If the Wilpons stop getting scammed out of all their money.)

Maybe its the Met's money problems, or the fact that every time I go to a game I want to throw something a Jason Bay; but I'm super-conservative when it comes to spending money on players. Agreed, TOR has a bunch of cash, and they should spend it. Just need to be careful on who you spend it on. There are a bunch of Jason Bays and Barry Zitos out there. I'm sure you haven't forgotten about Burnett's insane contract, and neither has TOR ownership.

Not sure who else you were looking at in the off-season. I remember hearing some rumors the Jays were going all-in on Prince Fielder? Might have been a couple of other players that that just didn't pan out because they wanted too much money to play in Canada. (Which you mentioned, but what can you do?)

The players you listed as helping I'm not sure would have done everything you needed. I know I wouldn't have bet on Kuroda, and I thought the Yankees offered him too much. Pitchers don't seem to move from the NL to the AL well. (I'm looking at you Ryan Dempseter.) Not sure what Kuroda wanted to go to Canada, but I did not bet on him having the kind of year he's having.

I feel for you on the injurys. Every time I look over at the AL, the Jays have a new player on the DL. Must be playing under that dome. (sarcasm)

The Met's have a terrible track record for caring for players, and keeping guys healthy. If thats TOR's problem, you can blame the org. Otherwise its just rotten luck.

As far as the trade deadline stuff, it might have been too little, too late for this season anyway. I mean, you could spend a ton to pick up some guys, and get maybe 3-4 more wins on the season, but it would cost a lot, and in that Division might not even get you a wildcard spot. (1 game playoff maybe? I'm not sure I'd think it was worth it.) Depending on how much you have to spend, might limit your ability to keep/get whatever free agents you want. (D-backs seem like they hate BJ Upton for some reason, He's up in 2013. Should be some pitching available then too.) Your going to have to offer Kelly Johnson a bit to stick around, he's probably worth it. I have no idea what the contract situation looks like Blue Jays.

You could hire back that mystery man in the stands who was stealing signs too. (more sarcasm)

Your pretty much right, TOR should spend some money if they want to win. I just think a team should focus either all on building for 3 seasons from now, or put everything they have in to winning the next 2 seasons. I'm not sure that many teams have the resources to do both in the same year.

Admit it, the Yankees are going to the WS this year anyway. (even more sarcasm)

The draft pick lottery is something else. TOR isn't one of the 10 lowest revenue or 10 smallest markets. True, they have a pretty low payroll, but that wasn't one of the conditions of being eligible. (Unless MLBs version of market size is greatly overblows what the TOR market actually is.) I think MLB got that one right, not their fault if TOR ownership wants sit on top of a pile of money. Maybe they are saving it for some really cool bobble-head days. The one good thing about the Met's being awful is I have a lot of free hats and tote bags.

Can I offer you a Mike Piazza BobbleHead?

Coworker · Post by **Coworker** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:26 am

Humm... above is a long winded version of:

If Teams pursue players in the off-season and they don't end up signing, there is not a lot anyone can do. By the time the season starts, there are not that many quality people available that can really help. Could probably cut salary and trade away farm system guys (See the LA Dodgers management for that one) But there is only so much you want to spend those assets. Sure, you can always throw money at guys, but you have to get value for what you spend. I realize there are no guarantees, but you can make reasonable bets on players. Offering more money doesn't always mean you'll get the player either, I'm sure players move for a ton of reasons other then cash.

Does TOR ownership need to spend more money on salary eventually?: yes
If I was a TOR fan, would I want them to spend that money in the best way possible?: also yes
Did they do that?: who the hell knows. I'm not sitting in an MLB office right now.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:35 pm

Welcome to the BBS!! I hope you stick around.

All the arguments I had for the Jays looked a lot better three weeks ago before they started this enormous collapse. God, it's been one ass-kicking after another lately. Rasmus, Lawrie and Bautista all being out makes the lineup look like the Las Vegas 51ers. I am FOR baseball in Las Vegas, but it should stay there until such content can accurately crush curveballs. :(

Who do the Mets have comin' up from the minors that you're looking forward to seeing?? Also, with Halladay out of contention I am pulling for R.A. Dickey to win the NL Cy Young award! I think of Cy was with us today, HE would be in Dickey's corner.

Coworker · Post by **Coworker** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:33 am

Dickey probably deserves the CY Young, but I'm pretty sure that anyone who votes for a knuckleballer has their vote taken away. Its a shame, but Cueto might edge him out in the NL. Far Less strike outs, but also allowed fewer runs. I could see people voting for Strasburg over Dickey for that reason too. The storyline dose give Dickey a push, never can tell with writers votes.

King Felix might get a push for AL Cy Young with that perfect game. Nicely done there. I didn't see any of that game, just some highlights That ball was moving. Who do you think in the AL... Verlander?

Rookies this year for the Mets.... (The whole team?)

Mike Baxter: Not really a rookie, but I'm glad to see this guy back. I have a soft spot for him and Murphy.

Matt Harvey:
I got to see Harvey's first start at Citi Field last week. He looks good. Fastball looks great sitting at 94-95. Motion is smooth. He took a loss, but I'm super excited. Will make a good #2 or #3 starter next season.

Basically the exact opposite feeling I got when I saw Santana opening day. Santana's fastball was WAY down, and he couldn't locate anything. Looked... Off... way to off to be starting games. He's not right after shoulder surgery, but they are going to keep tossing him out there anyway. No-hitter aside (I know, I shouldn't complain), he's not the same pitcher. Which is my major gripe about the Mets, they do not do right by injured players... pretty much ever. (I was 100% behind Beltran not using team doctors last year.)

Wheeler:
Zach Wheeler seems promising. Got hit up a bit in his first start for Buffalo. I haven't seem him pitch in person yet, but its pretty easy to get excited about a 22 year old with the kind of fastball the scouts say he has. Maybe I'll get up to see a Bisons game next season.

Nimmo:
Brandon Nimmo is playing SS for the Cyclones now. Who knows if we will ever see him in the Majors as a Met. But in 3 years if this guy is a SS, I will not complain. Mets need anyone they can get in that middle infield right now. The Valdespin/Murphy/Cedeno infield platton that is being thrown out in various combinations was fun for a bit, but is getting old. I like Murphy, but I should never go to a game and hear "Starting at 1st base.. Daniel Muurrrpyyy!!" on the PA.

Most of the farm system is in the "too early to really tell" phase. Guys are all 19-20 right now, so we will not know what they do for a while. I have a generally good feeling about it though. I was one of the few people who supported letting Reyes/Beltran/Pagan go, because we needed to open up some playing time and salary. If only we could get Boston to take back Bay.

Steak Sandwiches..: http://www.foodrepublic.com/2012/08/08/ ... a-steak-sa
These should be the 2nd half MVP for the Mets.

Jays should have a pretty good crop of Highschool guys if I'm not mistaken. Anybody your excited about?

(Also, this guy: http://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... u01.shtml but for some reason his name kept getting replaced by Phillepe J. Suckmonger?)

Coworker · Post by **Coworker** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:11 pm

I was being sad about the Mets....

.....Then I watched a 45 year old man try and steal a base.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:15 pm

Hahahaha =)

Yeah, that sort of sucked. I am gonna try to reply to a bunch of posts tonight, but yeah, if he's in the game and not wearing a glove something went terribly wrong.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:35 pm

Christ, this season:

Joey Bats out rest of year with rest surgery
Some guy killed another guy in a dispute about the pitching staff
Marcus Stroman is banned for 50 games for taking a "PED"

Coworker · Post by **Coworker** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:25 am

Cabrera is going to win the MVP because he won the Triple Crown. He should not. I'm not saying that's not a great achievement. I'm saying that RBI's are meaningless, and his fielding is not the best.

I also love hearing sports writers jerk off about how He's "Such a great guy" and "Loves the Game". I'm a great guy too, and i love baseball too... Where the fuck is my MVP?

Guy on NPR going off about how Cabrera has had to overcome being a non-native English speaker, and how that makes it so much more meaningful that he has done so well. I don't care. The guy who runs the bodega near my house had to learn English too... give it a rest.

This is turning into more of a rant then I wanted, and I'm probably just pissed this morning because I haven't had coffee yet, and the coffee in the office is shit.

But seriously, If I hear one more fucking person talk about how "American Kids are not as interested in Baseball, and thats why there are less American born players. American kids want to play Football."; I'm going to start firebombing ESPN. Its just not true. The reason there are less American born players is because there is about 300x the competition there was in the 40's since we can use international players now. Less guys are making it though, and there are more players on the market that are just as good, and want less money. Its like people think there is come special Latino baseball superpower, kind of like why black people are better sprinters right?

Anyway....

Trout for MVP!

Baseball 2012: Florida over Kansas City, 4-2

Baseball 2012: Florida over Kansas City, 4-2

Making all this up as I go along...

in summation

Sandwich for NL MVP

I am dominating this forum

MVP Voters.....