Certifications, training programs, getting started in IT

[Lysander]

I'm asking this quesiton here basically because it's a forum full of geeks who have all had geek-related jobs, and is visited by geeks; I get the feeling that there are a few viewers at home who would benefit from this besides me.

The catch22 of most jobs is: in order to get work experience you need a job, and to get a job you need work experience. The way to break this sycle for most jobs is getting a college degree; for IT you can shortcut that a little by earning sertifications. So of course there are about eight thousand million certs out there from all kinds of different companies. Since I live in bumfuck there aren't any physical locations nearby for me to walk into and learn at, so I'm pretty limmited to online only. This is a problem. The potential for scams on the internet is extremely high, and when you're actually looking to spend your money online it gets even higher. So my two-fold question is thus: what are good, impressive, "industry standard" certifications for a newbie to start working on, and where would be a good online training program that said newbie can actually learn things from?

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Since I live in bumfuck there aren't any physical locations nearby for me to walk into and learn at, so I'm pretty limmited to online only. This is a problem. The potential for scams on the internet is extremely high, and when you're actually looking to spend your money online it gets even higher. So my two-fold question is thus: what are good, impressive, "industry standard" certifications for a newbie to start working on, and where would be a good online training program that said newbie can actually learn things from?

You know what, they are evil and everything but if you got a Microsoft Certification in some field (Desktop Support Tech to start out?) well hey, there you go. Everyone bags on certs but certainly if you are gunning for your first IT job they can't hurt. I'm sure there is some employer out there who is all, "I would NEVER hire someone with certification from Microsoft or Sun or Oracle" but come on - you don't want to work for those people for whom operating systems and languages are a religious endeavor anyway.

How is your interest in programming? Java is not going away and I do believe you can get Sun certified over the net? I am just asking questions here?

I am self-taught in a lot of Oracle Application Server stuff but I would love to get myself on a proper program and track for it - not necessarily because the cert would have magical powers, but to ensure that there aren't clouds and globs of stuff that I should have learned, but unintentionally avoided.

Also, I hereby grant you the ROBB SHERWIN certificate of GAME TESTING. I'll go into Certificate Maker and print you out a sheet if you like. It may not be "accredited" but the paper stock will be nice - that's the RScoGT guarantee!

[Lysander]

You know what, they are evil and everything but if you got a Microsoft Certification in some field (Desktop Support Tech to start out?) well hey, there you go. Everyone bags on certs but certainly if you are gunning for your first IT job they can't hurt.

Certs are right now serving as my excuse to drop out of college, so yes, this is kind of important. Anyway, RE: desktop support I actually have some problems doing that 'cause of the blindness. (IT gets in my way because I cannot just walk right up to someone's computer and be able to diagnose the problem right away 'cause I can't read the screen myself, and remote access doesn't work with the screenreaders for reasons I wont' go into here because nobody cares. I see you're on IM, though, so I can rant off about that one to you personally if you actually give a damn. They're not insermountable issues, but they are legitimate reasons for an employer to not hire me, which is what matters in the end.) As for Microsoft--yeah, I'm thinking about getting an MCSE to start out with--the problem is, again, I dunno where to go to go after it.

I'm sure there is some employer out there who is all, "I would NEVER hire someone with certification from Microsoft or Sun or Oracle" but come on - you don't want to work for those people for whom operating systems and languages are a religious endeavor anyway.

You're right, I've seen people openly gloating about how they'd never hire someone with MS certs because the act of getting a Microsoft certification apparently removes all your value as a human being and turns you into a drooling idiot. I dunno where that kind of prejudice comes from--if they can do the job they can do the job, it doens't matter where they learned how to do it as long as they can do it. Drilling them about questions that they dont' need to answer because it's not in their job description is just being a powertripping asshole for no reason.

How is your interest in programming? Java is not going away and I do believe you can get Sun certified over the net? I am just asking questions here?

Very little, unfortunately. Programming sort of crosses the boundry of "interesting diversion that I get paid for" to "work" a little too much, ifyaknowwhatImean. That probably comes off as whiny, but really--I already know a lot about how computers work, and the security market is wide open, so why should I try to spend time on learning to do a job that would bore me to tears?

I am self-taught in a lot of Oracle Application Server stuff but I would love to get myself on a proper program and track for it - not necessarily because the cert would have magical powers, but to ensure that there aren't clouds and globs of stuff that I should have learned, but unintentionally avoided.

I'm in the same boat here, just in a different emphasis; replace "Oracle" with "network monitoring."

Also, I hereby grant you the ROBB SHERWIN certificate of GAME TESTING. I'll go into Certificate Maker and print you out a sheet if you like. It may not be "accredited" but the paper stock will be nice - that's the RScoGT guarantee!

You know, that might actually work. How many businesses woudl actually check the acred--er, wait, we're talkign aobut games here. Probably all of them. Shit, nevermind.

[Guest]

Certs are right now serving as my excuse to drop out of college, so yes, this is kind of important.

Why not impregnate a girl? Work the Nine to Five at Burger King?

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Lysander. No matter how much it might seem to suck, please, please, PLEASE continue with college. I will go ahead and say that it is very possible that you might ruin your entire life if you make the decision to stop.

I mean, we joke around a lot on here and everything, but please, my friend. However bad it might seem, not sticking through with it will make you feel a million times worse.

[Lysander]

Do not misunderstand, I'm going BACK. I'm just planning to move out of the state--I mean, ech, Alaska!, right?--and felt that I'd learn more important things from being self sufficient than I would in an extremely marginal college. (I have story after story to proove the general incompitence and lazyness of the people who work there, but now I'm turning JC into a Lysander-BLOGGGS-About-His-Problems website and that's just not any fun.) But! Good to look out, there. I appreciate it.

[Lysander]

Why not impregnate a girl? Work the Nine to Five at Burger King?

Shove your head in the trash compactor, anonamous trash.

[Draal]

quip

[Lysander]

Don't you have something better to be doing? Like sticking your head in the trash compafctor?

[co]

Do not misunderstand, I'm going BACK. I'm just planning to move out of the state--I mean, ech, Alaska!, right?--and felt that I'd learn more important things from being self sufficient than I would in an extremely marginal college. (I have story after story to proove the general incompitence and lazyness of the people who work there, but now I'm turning JC into a Lysander-BLOGGGS-About-His-Problems website and that's just not any fun.) But! Good to look out, there. I appreciate it.

The danger, of course is that lots of people don't go back after leaving and get caught in the daily grind of making a living. If you do take time off make sure that you keep any student loans that you have very happy with you so that it won't be a problem to start up again. (of course, you probably get very favorable grants and scholorships for being blind, lol.)

[Lysander]

If you do take time off make sure that you keep any student loans that you have very happy with you so that it won't be a problem to start up again.

Yes, well. I haven't had to take out any loans yet, because--

(of course, you probably get very favorable grants and scholorships for being blind, lol.)

Basically. This is totally off-topic now, but whatever--right now I get room and board paid by myself and tuition paid by the state. This may well change when I move to a different one. I honestly don't know, and that's rather frightening. That's all the "aid" I get, though--but to be fair I haven't trawled the net looking for rich old bastards willing to throw money at blind kids nearly as much as I should have. (That's probably a website itself by now.)

[co]

Basically. This is totally off-topic now, but whatever--right now I get room and board paid by myself and tuition paid by the state. This may well change when I move to a different one.

Certainly you would lose state resident status which ups the costs by at least a factor of 1.5 to 2x. Trust me, get the free degree where you can because paying for college is the least fun thing in the world. In many cases, most of what you learn in college is going to have nothing to do with your actual work and tasks in the real world so my advice is bite the bullet and get what you can for cheap.

[AArdvark]

I don't know the current situation in the IT world but in the manufacturing workforce the certs really don't matter anymore. Sure, having journeyman papers looks nice on a resume, but overall it wont make a difference anymore. Too many old school machinists can't get with the computer age stuff.

These certs you speak of are for knowing Windows inside and out, upside and down then? Available online of it is classroom stuff too?

THE
DIPLOMA
AARDVARK

[Lysander]

These certs you speak of are for knowing Windows inside and out, upside and down then? Available online of it is classroom stuff too?

Basically. Some are for various aspects of Windows, some are just for understanding core networking fundamentals (how the network stack works, what that *is*, differences between switches and routers, etc.) as well as 'training programs' that teach how to use other pieces of software/hardware (Cisco, for example, offers lots of certifications to prove you konw how to use their several thousand-dollar hardware efficiently.) You can take the test online, and you can study online--I jsut dunno where to find a good studyguide.

[bruce]

Fucking stay in school, dumbass.

Not because you need a degree or your life will be ruined.

But because this is how you GET your first IT job.

Seriously, get a job in IT at your school. Just head down to the computer center and find out if they're hiring. Odds are, they are. Then, after you graduate (or, hey, don't), after holding that job at the computer center for a couple years--hey! You've got work experience!

This is precisely how I started.

Bruce

[Draal]

I've been employed by two companies through contacts I made while I worked/took certificate training courses while in high school.

I never actually completed the certificates (the Cisco guide had a section on servers that included: information on configuring com ports in DOS to work in a WAN, information on getting DOS to interface with Unix as a client side process, and much more information I've never committed to memory) but saying "I set up a network that tracks, configures settings for, and has databased over twenty thousand unique users!" with a former senior tech from IBM as my contact (school admin, a good friend, and the teacher in my Microsoft Certificate course) fuzzes over any sort of requirements.

I'm actually connected to and messing with the Linux server I built in his class right now (they constructed a sort of server room just before I finished high school and... This computer resides in a hollow under a desk in a portable with a random cable running to it from somewhere dark and mysterious, giving me access to... Well... They shouldn't be using this as a server. Five bucks says they are either 1)Afraid of touching a server or cable running off into the unknown 2)Unable/unfamiliar with changing the software this system runs (it handles feeding the banned/allowed lists of websites to another server (yes, it creates/passes along a text file)) 3)Don't Know It Exists.

Contacts over Courses!

[Draall]

Lysander:

You've obviously put thought into this; why are you asking us? We can't tell you anything that hasn't already been considered, or know the expeirence and route that is best for you.

Even the simple matter of certificates stinks of just trying to reinforce a concept or decision you've already come to. Why ask us? There isn't a magical power out there that will made the decisions you've come to any more clear or certain. Just a group concious that will chime softly and help you feel reassured with whatever decision you have made.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

Lysander: Stay in school or else I'm going to drive out there and beat the shit out of you. Do you want to go? I would seriously love to fight you right now. You called down this down upon yourself and I promise you that I will go to the ends of the Earth, or Ends of the Earth, Alaska, which I am certain exists, to give you the pasting of your life if you quit school for even a semester.


WHO'S WITH ME?

[Vitriola]

Yeah, quitting school, even temporarily, is usually a bad idea. You will probably finish up, but you might not. All I can say is that, if you graduate, you'll be very, very glad you did, as it's then out of the way. Just pretend the You 2 years from now is telling You right now to just get it over with, so the You 2 years from now doesn't have to work that into the agenda somehow.

Not that Syracuse, NY, is Alaska, because it's not, it's worse, but I stayed there 6 years to get my damn degree just so that I knew when I left that hellforsaken place I would never, ever have to return, or go back to University.

[Ice Cream Jonsey]

That's all great and I'm sure he enjoyed your Straight Dope Message Board take on college, life and Life Experience, but we're trying to progress with violence, here. Are you planning on beating the shit out of him or not? We tried words and the result was someone trying to make him a Bsc degree (Bond Skipping College) with the Apple II version of Newsroom. The original "3 Rs" didn't work so we're attempting the new version, which is Rocks, Raining down blows and Rapefisting.