The only people who would find Matrix Reloaded "deep" and "meaningful" are people like Kevin Kline's character in "A Fish Called Wanda" - who reads philosophy and such because he think it makes him so intelligent, when he's really got a depth of a puddle of jizz and he doesn't really understand it at all.

Neo = One, Mobil = Limbo, Zion = salvation, does [i]not[/i] equal heavy significance.

[quote="Lex"]If you ever tell me I didn't understand Reloaded again, I swear I will walk to America and kick your ass, pasty.[/quote]Well, see, I wasn't talking about you there. But whatever. I kind of cringe at my "Matrix is the best felm evar!1!11!1!" attitude I've got in those posts now, but I still thought the movie was good, and could have followed up with a much better movie than the shitpile that was Revolutions. Seriously. When your$50000000+ action movie has fight scenes that can be compared, unfavorably, to those from Dragon Ball Z, something is seriously fucking wrong with your movie. Dig?

[quote="James Bond"]Alright, now hold on one goddamn minute. I personally find Matrix Reloaded to be one of the best goddamn movies ever, and certainly the best movie to come out of the shitpile that *is* modern cinima in, oh, i don't know, two years. Soppy, did you even *see the fucking movie* before you went and bashed it? The movie is chalked *full* of religeous significance! Do you think that they called the french guy the "maravingener" just because they thought it was an l33t name? As for Bot's comments, I can see why you'd think that way, but one thing you're forgetting is the Agent Smith subplot. Considering the way that history repeated itself 5 times (and for the record, that *did* blow my mind--at least, the part where they have rows upon rows of monitors all with Neo on them which all have different reactions, and you keep going through the scene by zooming in on one of them), things could get seriously funky if you throw in Agent Smith running amok. I don't just like the Matrix Reloaded for its fight scenes, though they were neat too, but because it actually *does* have an intriguing plot. You just have to get out of the "everyone's just making excuses to use awesome CGI now" rutt and look at the movie for what its trying to say.[/quote]


I do not agree with your opinion. And Revolutions was at least a vaguely enjoyable action film on its own. The second film was a rotting pile of faeces. Maybe you have to be British to accept this but; the Matrix2 could have been a really [i]good[/i] 30 minute film. Did you notice the fully-nine-minute-waffle the Marrow-Vignetté gives near the beginning? He takes so long to spraff out the most basic of basic philosophy that 8 year olds think about -- and repeats himself, as does EVERY OTHER FUCKING CHARACTER EVERY TEN MINUTES -- That you lose the will to live. I know I did. Even the [i]Oracle[/i] says YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE THE CHOICE NOW YOU ARE HERE TO UNDERSTAND IT DON'T EXPECT THIS TO EVER BE EXPLAINED OR MAKE SENSE a full 3 times. Jeezus. I don't know why they thought they could get away with that, and people would think it was *deep*.

The Architect is the biggest cop-out ever. He is stolen from every 1950's British sci-fi story ever. He uses really [i]bad[/i] upper-middle-class Oxford English completly incorrectly and is just plain [i]uncomfortable[/i] to watch. In old Sci-Fi, having an Architect at the end is to books what "And I woke up and it was all a dream..." is to an 12-year-olds English essay.

The entire movie was Idiot. The third one was relativly enjoyable. But, seriously, if you actually think about it; Reloaded could've been good if it was 30 minutes long, and released as a sort of mini-movie that tied up with 5 or six Animatrixes in a theatrical release.


[quote]
I'm not surprised to hear that most of you hated it and don't really care to argue its merits, but listing all the things you didn't understand (when most of them were pretty obvious) is hardly an argument.[/quote]

If you ever tell me I didn't [i]understand[/i] Reloaded again, I swear I will walk to America and kick your ass, pasty. Shuttup. Trite does not even begin to explain the sickening level of childish spraff that movie contained.

I'm bumping this topic. Everyone, just ignore all the shit after the first post and read my link in the first post of the topic. Because this would have made a far, far better movie than Revolutions ended up being, and I want you all to take a long, long look at what might have been. Thank you. That is all.

I watched it. It really wasn't very good was it?

In fact, Keanu Reeves IS a machine - can't you tell from his acting? Ever since he played an evil robot version of himself in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey I've known he was perfect for this role.

I just smoked a blunt in Central park with Zach De La Rocha while I apologized for not pardoning Mumia. Afterwards I watched Matrix Reloded at the IMAX on Broadway. I'm glad I inhaled, it made it so much more fun. Love those special effects on a 100 foot screen.

Besides, I can't complain about any movie that's full of lots of lovely brown women. I hope Jada Smith gets naked in the next one, that would be really enjoyable.

I thought it was "turtles all the way down", not elephants? Either one works, I guess, though elephants don't have the nice round planet-style back.

Regardless, I can't believe that, even after the mess of the sequel, that they could be [i]that[/i] lame as to just have it be a dream.

I would, though, agree with the idea of the "multiple layers" thing, which is hardly original or thoughtful - hell, just a couple years ago, Men in Black ended with our entire universe being fluff inside a giant marble that some alien was using. Philosophically, there's no difference.

(Hell, even Douglas Adams had Arthur Dent wondering if the whole galaxy was part of some giant computer program that was working on figuring out a difficult answer.)

[quote="Jethro Q. Walrustitty"]when not in the Matrix, nobody has super powers, people can't fly, etc. (Though apparently sentinels can.)

...

There's also no explaination for how Neo can "zap" sentinels in the real world, though I can grudgingly live with that, as presumably it'll be explained (probably poorly) in Revolutions.[/quote]

I'm telling you, my money is on an "IT WUZ ALL A DREAM HAHAHAHA!1!!!!!1! LOLLLOLL!1!! OMG!!!!1!" style ending.

Doubtless prettied up a little with "Matrices nested inside matrices, and it's elephants all the way down" or some such shit. In fact, Unhappy Office Space Neo may be the "realest" of them all.

I'd at least give the Wankoffski brothers style points if the third movie ends with Morpheus saying, "Oh, fuck. I meant the *blue* pill. Shit. Sorry. My bad. I always get them fucked up."

Bruce

Sorry, Roody, I can't buy "faulty program" as the explaination for everything. And mixing "code" from Neo? Neo [i]has[/i] no code, he's just controlling an avatar. That avatar knows how to bend the rules and do things jes' right to kick butt. Someone "getting the code" of that avatar is useless, and would not give super powers even if you did. That's be like someone using the same Marine Grunt character as Jonsey's boyfriend Thresh uses in Quake, then expecting to be able to school anyone at the game. It just doesn't work that way. (A better example might be to control the guy who hacks Everquest or another MMRPG, as they use tricks and hacks to do things they shouldn't be able to - but they're things that [i]anyone[/i] could do if they knew how.)

Even if you [i]do[/i] buy that - and c'mon now, you don't, right? - how could that allow Agent Smith to exist in the real world? Much less do Matrix-type tricks in the real, physical world?

As far as I can see, the Matrix tries to follows a fairly "realistic" world view - when not in the Matrix, nobody has super powers, people can't fly, etc. (Though apparently sentinels can.) So, how can computer code manifest itself in the real world? That's like something from [url=http://us.imdb.com/Title?0087197]Electric Dreams[/url], or even "[url=http://us.imdb.com/Title?0086014]Nightmares[/url]" (who remembers [i]that[/i] movie?)

You also say that Agent Smith can "unjack" - how is that possible, he's just a program!

We still have zero motivation for the guy holding the keymaster (and even less for why he cares about the keymaster), and no motivation for the twins.

There's also no explaination for how Neo can "zap" sentinels in the real world, though I can grudgingly live with that, as presumably it'll be explained (probably poorly) in Revolutions.

My opinions on the first matrix are now exactly in sync with Debaser's views.

[quote="Roody_Yogurt"]See, the thing that was great about the first Matrix wasn't that it was original in any way (because it wasn't); it was just that it stole a bunch of ideas from at least a dozen movies and threw them together well.

Now, it's adding depth to the enemy (and offering many shades of grey) and having fun trying to explain the unexplainable. To me, that's all good fun.[/quote]

You know what no one's pointing out, anywhere. There are generally stupid people who claim the Matrix is somehow deep and thoughtful because it cribs from a Philo 100 class. But what neither these people nor those who flame them understands, is that the "Plato's Cave" bullshit is not, nor ever was the point of the original Matrix. Sure, it's the prime [i]tool[/i], but it's not what the film's about. It's the instrument, but not the music.

[i]I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules or controls, borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.[/i]

Read that quote out of context. What's the speaker talking about?

People are enslaved by an evil inhuman entity who robs them of their energy to feed itself and keeps them trapped in an unchanging, artificial world so they don't try to unhook themselves. It's a great big dickslap of a metaphor for modern America, or at least modern America as often percieved by the young.

Watch the scene between Neo and his boss, where Neo gets chewed out for his tardiness. It's completely irrelevant to the rest of the movie, but it's also the [i]point[/i] of the rest of the movie. Neo's life as a 9 to 5er is one of bleak, grueling misery: his work going to perpetuate a corporation. His energy going to perpetuate a machine.

That's why, despite all the logistic holes, the movie connected on a real, visceral level with a lot of people. It preached a message it's audience was already willing to believe in, and did so with enough style and subtlety that they didn't realize they were being demagougued. And it's ostensible theme ("What is truth?") was just highbrow enough that the audience could focus on it and think they were watching an "intelligent" movie.

But it couldn't sustain a sequel. The brothers had a metaphor, not world or characters or even any plot beyond the basic concept. They abandoned the metaphor in Reloaded in favor of clever-seeming mindgames, and were left without much of anything.

Spoiler-ific

[i]I think it makes no sense that somehow Agent Smith popped into the real world, when he nabbed the guy in Zion. WTF?[/i]

When Neo entered Smith and destroyed him from within, during that meld of Matrix code or whatever, some of Neo's code was copied to Smith, pretty much giving him super-Agent powers and independence just as Neo is the super-human. So now Smith has the ability to copy himself completely over the personality of anyone logged into the Matrix and when he unjacks, he can walk around Zion freely.

[ sure, that answer may sound a bit ridiculous in itself. my personal justification will follow somewhere later ]

[i]
I think the guy who was "holding" the keymaster was pointless. Was he real? A program? What was his motivation?[/i]

Programs written to understand the human psyche have a mish-mash of human hang-ups and goals and desires. This is where the Matrix pays its best homage to Neuromancer. No longer are the AIs one happy family, but many different personalities working together or fighting eachother or whatever have you.

[i]
I think the twins had no explaination. Who are they? How do they get those powers? Are they like Agents, with computer-given superpowers? Or are they humans, like Neo and Morpheous, and are just better at "manipulating" the matrix? And why twins? Are two really better than one?[/i]

They're faulty programs with physics-breaking codebases, examples of a host of faulty programs responsible for most modern folklore, from ghosts to werewolves to vampires or whatever.

See, the thing that was great about the first Matrix wasn't that it was original in any way (because it wasn't); it was just that it stole a bunch of ideas from at least a dozen movies and threw them together well.

Now, it's adding depth to the enemy (and offering many shades of grey) and having fun trying to explain the unexplainable. To me, that's all good fun.

Sure, that dance scene was dumb and went on too long, as does some of those action sequences. I even spent the first ten minutes of the movie thinking, wow, this is going to totally blow, won't it, as it seems like I'm supposed to think it's cool that everyone is wearing the same shades and dorky clothes. Despite all that, though, I think the movie attempts to raise the bar in the right places and I enjoy it for that reason..

Slow network response meant that the submit button was pressed twice (as the first press timed out.)

That was not an attempt to be "The Two" by posting twice.

That'll teach me to not log in. Oh wait, I'm not now. Oops, guess it won't.

[quote="Roody_Yogurt"]I'm not surprised to hear that most of you hated it and don't really care to argue its merits, but listing all the things you didn't understand (when most of them were pretty obvious) is hardly an argument.[/quote]
If they were so obvious, how about explaining them?

Surely, you're not debating that the writers couldn't even figure out how to bring back Agent Smith, so in a fit of unprecendented laziness, had the character say that [i]he[/i] didn't understand how it happened, either?

While you're about it, explain how obvious it was that the sentinels decided to spend several days drilling through the Earth rather than using ready-made tunnels that take them directly where they want to go?

And, how exactly do the sentinels move? There are no visible means of propulsion. They're obviously based on squids and/or octopi, but those move with their tentacles underwater, and that just plain doesn't work in the dry air.

Hey, I liked The Matrix. I'll even say that I liked it a lot. I was looking forward to the sequel, and until "bad buzz" started circulating, I was expecting a good time. The biggest problem is that it's so smugly, offensively pretentious. Reloaded did not live up to my expectations, and I think most agree.

"Or, maybe, [i]you[/i] did not live up to the [i]movie's[/i] expectations." -Morpheus

Signed... the TWO.

[quote="Roody_Yogurt"]I'm not surprised to hear that most of you hated it and don't really care to argue its merits, but listing all the things you didn't understand (when most of them were pretty obvious) is hardly an argument.[/quote]
If they were so obvious, how about explaining them?

Surely, you're not debating that the writers couldn't even figure out how to bring back Agent Smith, so in a fit of unprecendented laziness, had the character say that [i]he[/i] didn't understand how it happened, either?

While you're about it, explain how obvious it was that the sentinels decided to spend several days drilling through the Earth rather than using ready-made tunnels that take them directly where they want to go?

And, how exactly do the sentinels move? There are no visible means of propulsion. They're obviously based on squids and/or octopi, but those move with their tentacles underwater, and that just plain doesn't work in the dry air.

Hey, I liked The Matrix. I'll even say that I liked it a lot. I was looking forward to the sequel, and until "bad buzz" started circulating, I was expecting a good time. The biggest problem is that it's so smugly, offensively pretentious. Reloaded did not live up to my expectations, and I think most agree.

"Or, maybe, [i]you[/i] did not live up to the [i]movie's[/i] expectations." -Morpheus

Signed... the TWO.

I've got to download this damn thing now.

I never thought I'd see the day, but I actually agree with James Bond and think that while not perfect, TMR took strides forward. It elevated the franchise from something that I didn't particularly care if I owned to being pretty sure that one day, I'll own them all so I can watch them when the mood strikes me.

I'm not surprised to hear that most of you hated it and don't really care to argue its merits, but listing all the things you didn't understand (when most of them were pretty obvious) is hardly an argument.

My take:

I would imagine (and this is not a shot at you, James) that our illustrious Mr. Bond probably doesn't have the 25-35 years of hating 99% of Hollywood content that the rest of us do. I'm guessing that he's in the neighborhood of 18 years of age. Until you've had enough time to devour all the fantastically shitty content that there is out there, you can't go into a flick like Matrix:Reloaded ready to hate it.

All of us can, though.

In a way, I'm slightly envious. I'm getting to be as bad as the rest of you guys when it comes to movies. I had a lot of ground to makeup, but as I go and see some more "classics," based on some of the messages on this BBS, it kind of slides everything else down a bit. But inherently, I guess I don't want to be a movie fan that is the equivalent of a video game fan telling everyone how great Myst and Deer Hunter are.

Straw and I tried to watch it on three different occasions and he fell asleep about 20 min. into the movie every time.