The Magnolia Files

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:08 pm

Here's a clue for you.

All the stories in the movie are the same story. And none of them are unique, because they're the same story happening all over the place, all over the country, all over the world, every day.

That's why it's not important whether you "cared about (x) character". It's bigger than that. It's a grand, horrible mirror of the worst (and then, in the end, the best) that humans do to each other.

In its own sick way, Magnolia has the happiest ending of all time. Because, with respect to Obi Wan, it's a billion happy endings, all crying out to be written at once.

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:12 pm

Hey, y'know, what the fuck do I know. Maybe you're right. It was weak, and too long, and preposterously self-indulgent.

I was wrong, everyone. Magnolia is, in the end, a giant turd. I take it all back.

Mallrats forever, baby.

Roody_Yogurt · Post by **Roody_Yogurt** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:16 pm

Except for that last post, I totallly agree with pinback. Not that Mallrats isn't fun.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:20 pm

pinback wrote:Ah, I see the problem here. You have no capacity to find any empathy with the (big letters here) "human condition".

In a movie? When they don't give me a reason to? You're damn straight.

When the old guy is moaning on and on, and right at the end, he just starts wailing, "What did I do? What did I do?" Did that not ring remotely true with any of your experiences? Did you not think for a second that one day, at the end of your life, you might question your decisionmaking of the present day?

I did that in the "A Guy Thing" thread. But not when it comes to women, no. I don't have any fucking empathy for the old guy (and oh -- by the way -- the fact that we are both refering to these people by names like "the old guy" or "the coked-out chick" doesn't do this pinnacle of human characterization any justice, what with the characters not being interesting enough for everyone to remember their names) because I've never come close to cheating on a girl. They've fucked around on me, I haven't done the same to them, I don't want to get to know some 65 year old bedsore who is waaa waa waaahing about it on his deathbed. Fuck him. "I was... a man!" No, you were fucking weak, old timer. You were a weakling and if you truly "loved" the woman you were blathering on endlessly about you wouldn't have stuck your cock into another girl's vagina. It's really quite simple. Love is about making some fucking sacrifices and that guy and Seinfeld's Bookman couldn't be bothered to make any.

I'll have my moments where I am crudded up like I was last night when I watched that ass film, but I know that in the end I'll bounce back because I am at heart an optimist and the only thing of any real value that I possess is that optimism. That person doesn't exist in the world of PTA, so I am not going to get worked up about it when I don't like his movies because they are utterly alien to me.

When you see these people wracked and wrecked by the pain of their past, wholly aware of the shit that has befallen them, but unable to right the ship, just "spokes in the wheel", do you not feel a pang of empathetic regret, sitting there in your little Bentley Bear-ass apartment in the middle of nowhere?

Actually, if I may get "meta" for a moment: I have done everything I can to forget the past. This is going to sound pretentious as hell, but the state that Delarion is in at the beginning of Fallacy of Dawn, where he can't remember anything about his past, is what I see as an ideal.

Funnily enough, Frank -- Tom Cruise's character -- is the one I could stand the most, and his attitude towards the past most matched mine. (His is also the only character's name that I can instantly recall. Funny, eh?)

Do you not understand anything that is going on in life while you're writing video games?

I don't know what you mean by this question. It is my hope that you rephrase it.

Are they LIKEABLE characters? Of course not.

OK. I am following you here. I honestly presumed that you liked them because, for me, there's little difference between liking "a movie," and liking "a movie's characters." Characters, and dialogue, are the most important aspects of a film for me. When the characters have no redeeming qualities, I'm going to be affected negatively.

With the exception of the nurse and the cop, they are grotesque, pitiful, pitiable characters. That's sort of the point. (And that's why the very last scene in the movie is, along with the musical number, the most powerful scene I can remember.)

Why the last scene? The last scene with Jim and whatsherface, Claudia there? Why that one? I get the other scene, and said as much. But why that last scene? For me, I thought the director fucked it up because he had the music on too loud. It was an incompetent decision, I thought, and I didn't think that Claudia simply staring off for two minutes into space until the very end where she smiles was the second most powerful scene in the movie.

And besides all that, let's not forget the exceptional acting, directing and production. And the score. Oh god, man, the score.

I am with you on the score. I don't think the direction was that good, I thought it screamed of, "hay guys, im making a MOVIE!!! hurr."

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:28 pm

pinback wrote:Hey, y'know, what the fuck do I know. Maybe you're right. It was weak, and too long, and preposterously self-indulgent.

I was wrong, everyone. Magnolia is, in the end, a giant turd. I take it all back.

Mallrats forever, baby.

You are a fucking asshole and -- being completely serious for the first time in the history of this BBS -- that was utterly uncalled for.

Don't you fucking dare attempt to pretend to "give in" and "give up" and roll your fucking eyes at me, you pompous piece of garbage. Never once have I fucking stated that I am some sort of world's authority on movies. NOT. FUCKING. ONCE. I come into every movie thread that is about something other than aliens, violence, or comics and state that I am attempting to learn something.

No, I'm not going to lie about what goes through my head when I've seen a movie because, Christ, what's the fucking point? But I have been attempting to discuss this thing in an honest and forthright manner. I went into it with an open mind and I am currently discussing it with an open mind. And you come back with "LOL MALLRATS" on me?

FUCK YOU, YOU ARROGANT FUCKING RUNNY HUMAN PUSTILE. FUCK YOU UNTIL THE END OF FUCKING TIME.

Feel free to go discuss this shit with the other people you've attempted to introduce this thing to. I hope you get a great deal of pleasure out of "Good, but not great," and "I fell asleep during the first hour." Those guys really wanted to understand the fucking thing, I can see how compelling that must be for you.

FUCK. YOU.

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:31 pm

I'm going to ignore most of that post, because, what, I'm gonna convince you to like the movie? Of course not.

But.

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Why the last scene? The last scene with Jim and whatsherface, Claudia there? Why that one? I get the other scene, and said as much. But why that last scene? For me, I thought the director fucked it up because he had the music on too loud.

AUUGHGHGHGHHhhhh.

Man. You just killed me. Right there. With that sentence. That he fucked it up because the music was too loud.

What, you couldn't hear what he was saying? Did you go back and turn the subtitles on to make sure? Did you hit the internet to get the screenplay? Music too loud?

It doesn't MATTER what he was saying. You could hear bits and pieces enough to know what he was there for. Don't you have any soul or romance in you, man?

And when she smiles? Right at the end? That's what the whole movie is about, dude. The past is the past, and it is what it is, and it sucks, and it'll never go away, but just to reach out and forgive and get a little redemption going and make someone smile... that's where it's at. Because shit happens. Frogs fall from the sky. Get on with it.

REGARDLESS of what the *words* are that you use. That's the whole goddamn point. It's not ONE STORY, Jonsey. It's EVERY story.

I am with you on the score. I don't think the direction was that good, I thought it screamed of, "hay guys, im making a MOVIE!!! hurr."

God.

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:31 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:You are a fucking asshole and -- being completely serious for the first time in the history of this BBS -- that was utterly uncalled for.

fart

hehehe

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:39 pm

pinback wrote:I'm going to ignore most of that post, because, what, I'm gonna convince you to like the movie? Of course not.

Jesus Christ. You can fucking help me understand what the fuck it was that I just spent three goddamn hours on a weeknight taking a look at. Your paragraph is the most depressing thing I have ever seen on-line: you have spent so much time fighting with people on the Internet that you can't even consider the possibility that just possibly you might be engaging in a bit of tete-a-tete with someone who wants to hear your take on the media in question at length and use it to help make sense out of what it was that was experienced.

I'm not your goddamn enemy here. I'm not your opponent.

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Why the last scene? The last scene with Jim and whatsherface, Claudia there? Why that one? I get the other scene, and said as much. But why that last scene? For me, I thought the director fucked it up because he had the music on too loud.
AUUGHGHGHGHHhhhh.

Man. You just killed me. Right there. With that sentence. That he fucked it up because the music was too loud.

What, you couldn't hear what he was saying? Did you go back and turn the subtitles on to make sure? Did you hit the internet to get the screenplay? Music too loud?

I had to go back and turn subtitles on. It was nice that I was able to do so, I would not have had that option in the theatre.

It doesn't MATTER what he was saying.

Then why put the subtitles in there in full force? Why do it that way? If it honestly didn't matter, they would not have been there. Instead, it just came off as incompetent.

You could hear bits and pieces enough to know what he was there for. Don't you have any soul or romance in you, man?

The director hadn't exactly earned my trust by the end of it, you know.

And for the love of all things holy, you had better have come up with that completely on your own and not taken that opinion up by reading a bunch of threads on it on the Internet.

And when she smiles? Right at the end? That's what the whole movie is about, dude. The past is the past, and it is what it is, and it sucks, and it'll never go away, but just to reach out and forgive and get a little redemption going and make someone smile... that's where it's at. Because shit happens. Frogs fall from the sky. Get on with it.

Your point here is well taken. I appreciate this.

REGARDLESS of what the *words* are that you use. That's the whole goddamn point. It's not ONE STORY, Jonsey. It's EVERY story.

It's not my story.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:41 pm

By the way, you were a complete dick in the ass to Violet and myself in this thread:

http://www.joltcountry.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1137

Roody_Yogurt · Post by **Roody_Yogurt** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:14 am

I'm glad you never cheated on a girl, Robb. When I was working at the zoo with several hundred employees, it would blow my mind how many zookeepers would practically brag about all of their infidelidites; even the head of the zoological society met his current wife while cheating on his old wife. Even though that doesn't represent anything that I've gone through, I accept that as a fact of life, especially when applied to any person in any sort of power, whether it be politcis, athletics, or whatever.

I've been head over heels over coke-heads (okay, just one) and realize how prevelant it is in our society (it's so totally hand in hand with alcoholism; actually, I think the movie "Trees Lounge" depicts a pretty good picture).

Of course, I don't mind if you hate the movie as not everything is everyone's cup of tea, but the point is, these wacky scenarios aren't very far off what many of us have seen with people we know or have seen and how far are we really from being those people. Sure, I've never cheated on a girl, but I've never been a super-handsome dude with tons of attention to test my morals. Personally, I like the message that people that have done wrong can still make amends.

And yeah, Tom Cruise's character is greateand I agree with some of his sentiments more than I'd want to, but eh, what can you do.

Violet · Post by **Violet** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:23 am

By the way, you were a complete dick in the ass to Violet and myself in this thread:

I agree.

I've never come close to cheating on a girl.

Yay, there's a real man in the room and I'm not talking about Aaron. I've never cheated on a girl either.

Just putting my two cents in.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:39 am

Roody_Yogurt wrote:When I was working at the zoo with several hundred employees, it would blow my mind how many zookeepers would practically brag about all of their infidelidites; even the head of the zoological society met his current wife while cheating on his old wife.

It's disgusting just for the show of total weakness. I get that people want to have, in bed, people that are "taken." Men and women, it's a desire of both genders: why wouldn't you want someone a bit tougher to get, blah blah. But it's not that difficult to throw out a phone call to your girlfriend if you are going to score at a bar with someone else that night. "Hey, honey, it's not working out, it's over, I'm going to totally nail this chick at the bar. Whoops, my minutes are up! Bye by--!"

But of course, men and women do not do that because they are weak. The horrors of actually having to POSSIBLY be alone if it doesn't work out with the one they are cheating with is so ridiculously frightening that they HAVE to have the safety net still kicking around in the background. It fucking disgusts me. People don't have some sort of inherent right to companionship. A guy who has whatever form of intercourse with a girl and then doesn't provide his girlfriend or wife with all the facts is simply a pussy and a coward.

So when this geezer is on his deathbed whining about it in "Magnolia," my reaction is going to be: fuck off, and die. You were never obviously in love, so therefore taking twenty freaking minutes to blather on and on and on about it is not an effective or remotely interesting scene. The fact that when he began to speak about it, I knew that the director was going to stretch it out for as long as possible didn't help things either. He's going to make his audience feel bad for this guy! You can't help but get on his "side," not if the director leaves you alone with him for a long enough time! He'll show me, all right! Ugh.

I sincerely *hope* that Magnolia doesn't speak in universal terms to the human condition. I would hate to see the planet and the human race as being, to a person, so utterly repugnant, vile and worst of all, tedious. I think that those who really like the film have a bit of Oscar Wilde in them, and I don't mean in the normal way that one gets some Oscar Wilde in them, which is homosexual sex, but instead metaphorically.

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:34 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:He's going to make his audience feel bad for this guy!

The intent of the scene is not to make the audience feel bad for this guy. I think you are approaching the movie too simplistically, like you expect it to force-feed you some "message", and thus are looking for that message where none exists.

Jethro Q. Walrustitty · Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:50 am

I find it laughable that Pinback continues to taunt Jonsey for being "unsophisticated" because of Mallrats, yet his "review site" only lists reviews for what you might see at the "top ten rentals" at Blockbuster. Big-budget action flicks, etc.

As there hasn't been a review section on here in a while, I have no idea if he's been spending his time expanding his cinematic view since updating his little review site. I'm guessing not, as he spoke of "human condition" and such about even the flaccid Alien Resurrection movie.

If this is the case, his praising of Magnolia as the greatest movie ever would be rather like someone who listens to nothing but Top 40 music crying out that "Hooked on Classics" is the greatest song ever.

Ever see "Blow", Pinback? It's probably up your alley. Big budget, attempting to be serious, and have a real "sad" final note to it... yet, it's just an overblown, pompous, overly serious flick about a fucking degenerate cocaine dealer. And I'm supposed to be all sad at the end 'cause he's growing old in jail? I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO.

When a movie has to beat you over the head with its "eternal truths" and "bold visions" and "devastating commentary on the human condition" - chances are that it's a big, insincere mess.

I would recommend seeing some more of the top movies according to IMDB or even the top ones from the AFI Top 100 list. Then perhaps you can mpre clearly have an idea of what's the best. Hell, I've seen a ton of "classic" movies, and I've only seen the 6 of the AFI top 20. I have seen 14 of the top 20 at IMDB (and have Seven Samurai waiting for me on the Tivo), but that list is going to favor recent blockbusters rather than all-time classics. Unfortunately, the AFI lists only American movies... which excludes countless foreign classics.

Or, go through Ebert's Great Movies series, which doesn't attempt to rank them. Find some that sound interesting, and watch those.

As for the tangental stuff, of course cheating is an awful thing to do, and no one should do it, and hopefully no one here has. (I sure haven't.)

Me? I'm halfway through Steve Martin's "Pennies from Heaven" - never saw it before. It's actually almost fascinating, that he was able to make such a movie.

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:54 am

I see JQW is back to talking about things about which he has absolutely no idea. Welcome back, buddy! Maybe keep it to a single post, next time?

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:17 am

pinback wrote:I see JQW is back to talking about things about which he has absolutely no idea. Welcome back, buddy! Maybe keep it to a single post, next time?

Quit being such a git. What the hell's wrong with you?

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:26 am

pinback wrote:When the old guy is moaning on and on, and right at the end, he just starts wailing, "What did I do? What did I do?" Did that not ring remotely true with any of your experiences? Did you not think for a second that one day, at the end of your life, you might question your decisionmaking of the present day?

pinback wrote:The intent of the scene is not to make the audience feel bad for this guy.

Excellent! Glad we got that cleared up.

I think you are approaching the movie too simplistically, like you expect it to force-feed you some "message", and thus are looking for that message where none exists.

And I think you are reading way too much into it, are overlooking its many flaws as a matter of course, projecting your own conclusions onto a movie which offers none and have the same attitude towards this movie as I do towards Chasing Amy: "I like it because it personally speaks to me."

And by the way: the narrator attempting to pass off a few urban legends at the beginning of the film as true was FUCKING SHITE. You, who has completely rejected the concept of religion because it expects that people are basically simple, mindless braingimps, had no problem with a flick that tried to pass off a bunch of crap from Snopes as fact within its first ten minutes? "There are no coincidences! No, maybe there are! Maybe stuff just happens! Maybe it doesn't! But regardless, here's a bunch of crap I <strike>stole</strike> made up from <strike>the Internet and the "Choking Doberman" book</strike> my clever, creative, Fiona-fucking little mind, hee hee hee!" Give me a goddamn break. This thing was condescending before the opening credits rolled.

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:55 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
pinback wrote:I see JQW is back to talking about things about which he has absolutely no idea. Welcome back, buddy! Maybe keep it to a single post, next time?
Quit being such a git. What the hell's wrong with you?

Oh, gee, I don't know, Sysop, maybe I have a little problem when a dude comes onto my movie base and starts telling me I don't know shit about movies because one time in 1997 when I was in Florida bored out of my mind, I saw a couple of movies way too mainstream and uncool for said dude, and now every time I try to state an opinion on a movie, he just keeps barfing up the same tired old ridiculous crap, "Oh yeah, well, you liked ALIEN RESURRECTION!! Yeah? Well, you liked ALIEN RESURRECTION!! I am totally lame, but YOU liked ALIEN RESURRECTION!"

At least get some new material.

Ice Cream Jonsey · Post by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:57 am

pinback wrote:Oh, gee, I don't know, Sysop, maybe I have a little problem when a dude comes onto my movie base and starts telling me I don't know shit about movies because one time in 1997 when I was in Florida bored out of my mind, I saw a couple of movies way too mainstream and uncool for said dude, and now every time I try to state an opinion on a movie, he just keeps barfing up the same tired old ridiculous crap, "Oh yeah, well, you liked ALIEN RESURRECTION!! Yeah? Well, you liked ALIEN RESURRECTION!! I am totally lame, but YOU liked ALIEN RESURRECTION!"

At least get some new material.

Much better. Thank you.

Also!

You liked Alien Resurrection?

fart

hehehehe

pinback · Post by **pinback** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:05 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:And by the way: the narrator attempting to pass off a few urban legends at the beginning of the film as true was FUCKING SHITE.

Why? What's the problem?

You, who has completely rejected the concept of religion because it expects that people are basically simple, mindless braingimps, had no problem with a flick that tried to pass off a bunch of crap from Snopes as fact within its first ten minutes?

How are these two things even remotely related?

This thing was condescending before the opening credits rolled.

I'm sorry you felt that way. Then again, you were chomping at the bit to hate the movie before you even popped it into your DVD, so you could look all "cool" and "hip" in front of your loser friends on here, and hoping to stir up some more crap so that anything, please God, anything interesting might start happening on your BBS again. In fact, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if you LOVED the movie, and are just being contradictory as a desperate attempt to create some content flow on this otherwise dry, desolate, barren teenage wasteland.