Movies Where He Dies At The End [Spoilers!]

by **loafergirl** » Thu May 26, 2016 7:40 am

Flack wrote:The protagonist is the star of the story. The protagonist has an arc of change, and a goal.

The antagonist is the story's villain. Antagonists also have a goal, which is diametrically opposed to the protagonist's.

A "Villain Protagonist" is when you take a villain and tell the story from their point of view. Per Google: "Famous examples of traditional villain protagonists at work include the Godfather trilogy, The Usual Suspects, American Psycho, A Clockwork Orange, and Dexter."

There's a reason Die Hard is not on that list.

And you have just explained to me what my eldest child was learning in ELA earlier this school year. Cool.

by **Flack** » Thu May 26, 2016 7:22 am

The protagonist is the star of the story. The protagonist has an arc of change, and a goal.

The antagonist is the story's villain. Antagonists also have a goal, which is diametrically opposed to the protagonist's.

A "Villain Protagonist" is when you take a villain and tell the story from their point of view. Per Google: "Famous examples of traditional villain protagonists at work include the Godfather trilogy, The Usual Suspects, American Psycho, A Clockwork Orange, and Dexter."

There's a reason Die Hard is not on that list.

by **RetroRomper** » Wed May 25, 2016 11:33 pm

WTF is a villain protagonist? Isn't that about as coherent as calling your product "Cheddar Cheese?"

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Mon May 23, 2016 6:45 am

The terms antagonist and protagonist mean something in a literary sense. If you look that concept up and return to my posts, you will see why everything I said is correct.

by **Tdarcos** » Mon May 23, 2016 2:31 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Hans doesn't get any of that, he just gets greased out. He receives no growth from that moment, a sure sign that he is not the protagonist of the film.

We will have to agree to disagree. Hans is the Villain Protagonist. McClane just walked into the action which was already in progress and started by Hans. Hans is the one executing a plan, McClane is the Hero Antagonist, the one who is trying to stop a plan already in action.

Look at Lord of the Rings, the protagonist goes on a quest to throw the ring in a volcano, the antagonists are trying to stop him from doing so.

I still stand by my statement. You still haven't convinced me that Die Hard is other than a movie where John, as the antagonist, is trying to stop Hans' plot.

by **Flack** » Sat May 21, 2016 11:05 pm

Tdarcos wrote:I stand

by **pinback** » Sat May 21, 2016 4:17 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:I do give the screenwriter and director of Die Hard a ton of credit for giving Hans Gruber a lot more motivation than most action movie villains get.

It really is the perfect movie.

It's the perfect action movie.

It's the perfect action movie, Robb.

The perfect action movie: Die Hard
The perfect "summer blockbuster" movie: Jaws
The perfect science fiction movie: 2001
The perfect war movie: Apocalypse Now
The perfect Bob & Doug McKenzie movie: Strange Brew

On these, there can be no dissenting opinions.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Sat May 21, 2016 2:16 pm

Tdarcos wrote:Nakatomi Corporation, probably from Takagi, her boss, gave Holly her watch. (Takagi states to McClane it was a present [presumably from her employer] for her hard work.

Therefore when Hans clutches the watch at the end of the movie and McClane unlatches it, allowing it to fall and Hans to plummet to his death, we have a metaphor that involves McClane, McClane's wife Holly, Holly's career and Holly's relationship with to family and John.

Hans doesn't get any of that, he just gets greased out. He receives no growth from that moment, a sure sign that he is not the protagonist of the film.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Sat May 21, 2016 2:09 pm

I do give the screenwriter and director of Die Hard a ton of credit for giving Hans Gruber a lot more motivation than most action movie villains get.

It really is the perfect movie.

by **pinback** » Sat May 21, 2016 1:45 pm

Tdarcos wrote:or example, the protagonist, while still defined as a leading character, may also be defined as the character whose fate is most closely followed by the reader or audience

So, in other words, John McClane.

You're wrong on this one, Paul. I mean, also on everything else in the world, but especially this.

by **Tdarcos** » Sat May 21, 2016 12:23 pm

Nakatomi Corporation, probably from Takagi, her boss, gave Holly her watch. (Takagi states to McClane it was a present [presumably from her employer] for her hard work.

by **Tdarcos** » Sat May 21, 2016 12:20 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:Sure thing.

Hans Gruber, the antagonist

No, no, no, no, no. Hans is the protagonist. He has a plan, a goal, and a thing to be done. McClane is the antagonist, the one who stops said plan.

Let me take a look at Wikipedia:

"The word protagonist (from Ancient Greek πρωταγωνιστής (protagonistes), meaning "player of the first part, chief actor")... in addition the word takes on more formalized definitions. For example, the protagonist, while still defined as a leading character, may also be defined as the character whose fate is most closely followed by the reader or audience, and who is opposed by a character known as the antagonist. The antagonist will provide obstacles and complications for the protagonist;"

Hans is a leading character in the story, and John McClane is providing obstacles and complications to him.

I stand by my statement.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri May 13, 2016 8:01 pm

Christ, they don't make scenes (or movies) like this anymore.

[youtube][/youtube]

by **pinback** » Fri May 13, 2016 9:54 am

Terrell was the one charged with the task of killing Kirk. Rather than do that, he killed himself.

Chekov's worm, seeing this all go down, and realizing that these people are crazy and would rather phaser themselves than do what Khan wants, said:

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Fri May 13, 2016 9:31 am

The ear worm definitely went through the Hero's Journey.

It always bugged me that Captain Terrell disintegrated himself, but Chekov's ear worm just .... sort of came out on its own, due to Chekov's screaming. I guess.

I would like Pinback to address whether I have forgotten the logic here or if they just fucked up.

by **Flack** » Thu May 12, 2016 9:04 pm

I'd like to go on the record and say that the protagonist of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn was the ear worm.

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu May 12, 2016 8:33 pm

Flack wrote:Wait wait wait.

Are you suggesting, sir, that Tdarcos would simply Google a topic and post about it on this very forum without fully understanding the topic?

Do you expect us to believe this? Do you really think you have a chance against us, Mr. Cowboy?

If Tdarcos read about it on the Internet, that would be one thing, yes. That we can all understand. If he's saying that he saw the movie and came to that conclusion, I am happy to explain to him why he is incorrect.

I can see where he's coming from Wrath of Khan (though that is also incorrect; Kirk is so clearly the chief protagonist that I won't get into that one) but saying that about Die Hard shocks me.

Die Hard is also one of the best-plotted movies a person like myself would ever see. The script is perfect. People who like action movies and try to work in fiction should understand why Die Hard makes so much sense, it's perfectly made and cast. I really hope they never remake it.

That said, I think there's a greater chance they bring Alan Rickman back for the next Die Hard movie than Tdarcos seeing this thread and replying to me up there. :/

by **Flack** » Thu May 12, 2016 8:16 pm

Wait wait wait.

Are you suggesting, sir, that Tdarcos would simply Google a topic and post about it on this very forum without fully understanding the topic?

Do you expect us to believe this? Do you really think you have a chance against us, Mr. Cowboy?

by **Ice Cream Jonsey** » Thu May 12, 2016 6:38 pm

Sure thing.

Hans Gruber, the antagonist, killed Harry Ellis, brought the hostages to the roof to put them in danger, held Holly hostage at gunpoint, tried to steal millions, admitted to being a thief ("I am an exceptional thief") attempted numerous times to kill a cop, including squeezing the trigger with an unloaded gun at McClane's head and was prepared to take Holly to her death after he was shot and fell out the window.

He does not go on a journey, he does not learn anything, he does not have a character arc and he does not learn anything. He is the antagonist.

John McClane is our POV character, engages in several heroic acts while taking on one grievous injury after another and saves as many people as he can. In 99% of all movies the "hero" is the protagonist and Die Hard is no different.

However.

I want Tdarcos to tell me who gave Holly her watch ("It's a Rolex") and I will further demonstrate why John McClane is the protagonist. If Tdarcos cannot do that then he hasn't watched Die Hard seriously enough to have the opinion that the antagonist and protragonist are switched.

by **Flack** » Fri May 06, 2016 12:24 pm

If we are extending the list to films where the antagonist dies at the end, I have a bunch to add.

Movies Where He Dies At The End [Spoilers!]

Post a reply

Expand view Topic review: Movies Where He Dies At The End [Spoilers!]