Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

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Tdarcos
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Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Tdarcos » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:20 pm

Aron Ra has done a video referring to a peer-reviewed paper explaining why Noah's flood could not have happened. It's a great explanation and I found it funny.



For those not interested in watching the video, here's the summary:

In this paper, (which is no longer available for free), the authors look at the only four possible ways the flood could have happened: 1. Rain; 2. Hydrothermal springs; 3. One large comet impact; 4. Large group of small-piece comet impact.

The Bible claims it rained 40 days and 40 nights. The oceans currently hold about 1.37 billion cubic kilometers of water. To cover every high mountain would require an addition 4.4 billion cubic kilometers (a billion cubic miles) of water, or 3x current volume. It couldn't have been here or it would still be here.

1. Rain. If the water came from water vapor surrounding the earth ("the firmament") that much water vapor would increase the atmospheric pressure from 14 pounds per square inch to over 5 tons per square inch (11,740 PSI). The atmosphere would be 99.9% water vapor so nothing could breathe. And it would have turned into clouds, blocking all sunlight.

Let's not forget thermodynamics. Each kilogram of water vapor condensing back into water would generate a million joules of heat. (This is where hurricanes and other storms get their energy). 40 days of rain would generate 10^28 joules of energy worldwide, raising the surface temperature of the earth above 6,400 degrees!

2. Hydrothermal springs. The water was stored underground, in springs until it exploded out the way geysers at Yellowstone release steam. So the crust cracks and highly pressurized water shoots into the sky. Water takes a long time to heat up or cool down. Water buried underground for a thousand years at 3,000 degrees, steam cooking the entire surface of the planet (or boiling it alive)!

3. One large comet. It would have to be a ball of water-ice 1300 miles across. (2x as wide as Texas.) It's 1000 miles thicker than the atmosphere and will not burn up in it. If it hits the earth at 10 miles/second the blast would be equivalent to 12 trillion megatons of TNT, wiping out all life faster than the flood would!

4. Large group of small-piece comet. A million smaller comets reduces the impact effect, but doesn't change the combined energy from the falling mass. The smaller comets heat up and vaporize in the atmosphere, and the earth's surface temperature would rise to about 12,000 degrees, about 20% hotter than the sun!

There just ain't any way this is going to work.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by RealNC » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:06 am

You do not need scientific proof against something that has a logical proof against it.

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by RealNC » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:21 am

I think the more pressing issue is fitting millions of animals on a boat.

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by pinback » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:22 pm

That's the Ark, RealNC. Tdarcos is disproving the flood, not the Ark.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by AArdvark » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:23 pm

I read someplace that Bob Ballard found underwater evidence of the Black Sea flooding the entire region around 5000 years ago. It would serve as the basis for all the flood legends in the cultures around that area, including that Noah business.

I also found this....


Image


Which would seen to point to the contrary...

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:44 pm

A lot of cultures have had flood myths. It's an important part of a growing culture!
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Tdarcos » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:30 pm

pinback wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:22 pm
That's the Ark, RealNC. Tdarcos is disproving the flood, not the Ark.
Exactly. What I found so hilarious was that for the flood alone,every possible scenario turns the earth hotter than molten lead (621°F / 327.3°C), lava (1,292-2,192°F / 700-1,200°C) or steel (2500°F / 1370°C).

As for the Ark itself, eight people have to feed, water, and clean up after over 2000 animals in a building perhaps the size of six football fields with 1 window. San Diego Zoo has 3,500 animals and 650 employees on 99 acres.

And, of course, it took 1,000 of Ken Ham's skilled construction workers 6 years with modern (powered) construction tools, cranes and other commercial equipment to build the replica in Kentucky. How long would it take an (allegedly) 600 year man and seven unskilled people to build a boat 510'L x 85'W x51'H with bronze-age hand tools?
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by RealNC » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:46 pm

Look, all I'm saying is that there is no need to disprove something that comes as a package with the whole ark thing. Credibility already went down the drain with that already.

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Jizaboz » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:03 am

AArdvark wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:23 pm
I read someplace that Bob Ballard found underwater evidence of the Black Sea flooding the entire region around 5000 years ago. It would serve as the basis for all the flood legends in the cultures around that area, including that Noah business.
Yeah even as a kid I kinda figured the story with this is that AN AREA was flooded, and people in other parts of the world were just fine and saying "LOL what flood?".

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Tdarcos » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:09 am

RealNC wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:46 pm
Look, all I'm saying is that there is no need to disprove something that comes as a package with the whole ark thing.
Wrong. The only thing that can conclusively shut down Christian apologists is evidence which shows, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond a shadow of a doubt and to an absolute certainty that their stories are wrong.
Credibility already went down the drain with that already.
Christian apologists generally have no credibility but they continue to make the same old, tired and discredited claims until chased away because they've been refuted. Whereupon they find new, tired and discredited claims until those fail, then go on to new refuted ones or back to the old ones. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The Bible says there is nothing new under the sun, and this includes the failed arguments of Christian apologists who try to argue the bible is not a bunch of fantasy stories and false narratives. Professional apologists tend to look like smarmy used-car salesmen only more dishonest. They always lie because what they are trying to argue is a lie. Aron Ra refers to their arguments as "PRATT" : Points refuted a thousand times.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by RealNC » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:23 am

I don't see the point in trying to disprove something that's got nothing to do with religion. They claim there was a flood. OK, good. Who knows, who cares. Floods aren't a supernatural phenomenon and thus it's pointless to argue about it to christians. Even if you prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was no flood, nothing is achieved. After all, god sprinkled fake fossils around the place to confuse us. And, you're opening yourself up for a huge loss, in case it turns out there was a flood. And if there was, it had of course nothing to do with a non-existent, all powerful being in the sky, but THEY will shove it down your throat and use it as "proof" to recruit more people.

Very little gain, huge risk. I'd leave it alone.

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Tdarcos » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:47 pm

RealNC wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:23 am
Even if you prove beyond reasonable doubt that there was no flood, nothing is achieved.
Wrong. Every argument exposed to a reasonable person, who, like I was, simply indoctrinated into belief in a god but not invested and willing to listen to reason, brings them closer to the possibility that they will realize how wrong what they were spoon-fed as a child was.

Some people will never listen. They can die off and we will be rid of them. But those who have an open mind can be reached and perhaps rescued from the damage religion does.
After all, god sprinkled fake fossils around the place to confuse us.
I love that sort of thing. First, it argues god to be a psychopath who wants to torture us. Do you really want to pray and worship a monster? Second, it shows someone is lying, as 1 Corinthians 14:33 says, "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." So either the speaker is wrong and god did not create confusion (meaning the fossils are accurate), or god is a monster as bad as Satan. After all, if god loves you and wants a relationship with you, is he going to deceive and betray you? Who should you believe, the evidence backed up by the Bible or someone claiming god is lying to you?

The acid of doubt works slowly, but the sunlight of truth can help accelerate it.
And, you're opening yourself up for a huge loss, in case it turns out there was a flood. And if there was, it had of course nothing to do with a non-existent, all powerful being in the sky,
The point is, the arguments here prove conclusively there was no worldwide flood. Approx. 5,000 years ago there was a regional flood in the general area. The telling and retelling of these stories keeps expanding them.
but THEY will shove it down your throat and use it as "proof" to recruit more people.
Pre-Internet. Today, anybody with a cell phone can look up claims and see if true. It is much harder to lie about major events. Christianity is becoming less popular as the two fastest-growing religious classifications are atheist and Muslim. Educated and knowledgeable, vs. stupid and ignorant.
Very little gain, huge risk. I'd leave it alone.
No, it's not possible. If those of us who accept reality do not challenge those who want others to believe fantasy we will lose this civilization and the benefits technology gives us.

The Moody Blues sang about it in I'm Just a Singer in a Rock-And-Roll Band:
How can we understand
Riots by the people for the people
Who are only destroying themselves


Some people complain they should be allowed to believe whatever they want, even if it is lies. They have the absolute right to do so. What they have no right to do is demand those lies be taught to children as if they were truth.

And when you see a frightened
Person who is frightened by the
People who are scor-scorching this earth.

Religion has done nothing except fill people's heads with fairytales and damaging stories. Religion is like a disease that ruins everything it touches.

* The vast majority of American prisoners are religious and the percentage of atheists in prison is lower than the percentage in public.
* The Middle East is mostly grappling poverty and constant fighting over what religion - or what sect of the same religion - is to be in control.
* In deeply religious areas of the U.S. the dominant form of contraception taught to teenagers is abstinence. These are the areas with the highest levels of teen pregnancy and repeat teen pregnancy.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Casual Observer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:17 pm

Tdarcos wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:09 am
Wrong. The only thing that can conclusively shut down Christian apologists is evidence which shows, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond a shadow of a doubt and to an absolute certainty that their stories are wrong.
Wrong. These people don't give a rats ass about "evidence" or "facts", that's why the whole thing is about faith. Surely, as a Trump supporter, you can understand the concept of not giving a shit about facts?

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Flack » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:15 pm

These are the same people who claim fossilized dinosaur bones are not tens of millions of years old, but 6,000 years old, max. No matter how many facts you present, their answer is, "you're wrong." When the ultimate defense to an argument is "well, you just have to believe," and the answer to the question "what would make you change your mind" is "nothing," it's kind of wasted brain cycles IMHO (unless you just get a kick out of arguing with people). You could spend the rest of your life using geology and science to prove that a global flood didn't take place and the response you'll get 100% of the time will be, "Bible said it did, so you're wrong." When someone looks you square in the eye and says they believe Jonah spent three days in the belly of a whale, I go find something else to do.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by pinback » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:32 pm

Say, Paul, how many religionists have you converted to atheism so far?

Just want to get a general sense of how effective your approach is.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by RealNC » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:22 pm

I have difficulty reading anything that begins with the word "Wrong" followed by a period and a space.

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Tdarcos » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:30 am

Casual Observer wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:17 pm
Surely, as a Trump supporter, you can understand the concept of not giving a shit about facts?
Again, your obvious ignorant incompetence shows over and over again. Where the fuck did you get the idea I was a Trump supporter? You apparently have me confused with Billy Mays.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Tdarcos » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:35 am

pinback wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:32 pm
Say, Paul, how many religionists have you converted to atheism so far?

Just want to get a general sense of how effective your approach is.
I'm not in the business of converting people. I just pointed out that for good, technical reasons every single possible method which could produce a worldwide flood essentially results in incinerating the planet.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by Flack » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:17 pm

Tdarcos wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:35 am
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.
You've convinced me!
"Jack Flack always escapes." -Davey Osborne

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Re: Scientific Proof against Noah's flood

Post by AArdvark » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:04 pm

Anyone read that Carl Sagan book 'The Demon Haunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark'?

There's a part about an invisible dragon living in a garage that is appropriate to this discussion. Not the flood thing, the religion-belief part.

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