Awww shit, boys.

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RealNC
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by RealNC » Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:35 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:44 pm
I am NEW TO THIS WORLD. So I wanna learn.
It's difficult to explain. It's like asking why Ed Sheeran is shit. He just... is. And if you like his music then you're an idiot.

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by pinback » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:08 am

I am okay with this discussion going to Korn, Slipknot, or any '90s nu-metal band, or even Ed Sheeran, because no matter what you're talking about, it's better music than anything in Jonsey's Top 100 list.

Also, the douchiest thing you can say is "after a few listens, it gets much better", so I'll be El Douchey here -- I have done nothing but listen to the album since it came out, and it gets better each time.

I saw someone say something extremely wrong about it, which I'd like to comment on. They said that while 10,000 Days felt like a single, album-sized piece that flowed together with a similar theme, Fear Inoculum was more a number of distinct pieces. Everything about that sentence is wrong:

10,000 Days had songs about TV news shows, the hypocrisy of the "war on drugs", the singer's dead mother, the propensity of humans to create division where none exists, and getting kidnapped by aliens while tripping on DMT. None of these are thematically similar, nor are the songs themselves (other than all sounding very much like TOOL songs.)

Fear Inoculum has a running theme of... well, I have no idea because I don't listen to lyrics, and there are no distinct lyrical "hooks" to let you know what the hell Maynard is talking about. BUT, musically it's very much one piece. I mean, that little Yello-esque "ch-ch-kah!" that you hear at the very beginning of the first song appears multiple times on other songs. Maynards "bless this immunity!" is snuck into other tracks. Three of the goddamn track names directly reference the title of the album. And musically, the six main pieces complement each other as long, droning, chugging meditations on the same five notes and off-kilter time signatures. There has never BEEN a more cohesive, single-minded TOOL album.

To sum up, whoever made that statement above was a moron, and I am smart. Thank you.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:29 am

I am okay with this discussion going to Korn, Slipknot, or any '90s nu-metal band, or even Ed Sheeran, because no matter what you're talking about, it's better music than anything in Jonsey's Top 100 list.
You literally said somewhere or here that these idiots in "nu metal" are playing the same five notes over and over again.

I'm going to leave Tool out of this because you guys seem to be happy to have them back and I am not really talking about them, they seem okay. But I'm not going to get garbage dayed by Korn or Limp Bizkit or other nu-metal bands. There isn't a single person in Korn with more talent than whoever you think the least talented person is in Queen.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:31 am

Flack wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:24 am
About five years I went to see Korn and Slipknot in concert. Tickets were free. While we were in line for beer I heard a Slipknot fan say, "pshhh, look at all these asshole Korn fans." I thought it was really good that Slipknot fans found someone to look down on.
Ahaha! This is great! I love this.

Again, leaving Tool and RATM out of this, you guys have some shitty bands in your genre here and I want to laugh with all of you about them.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Flack » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:46 am

bryanb wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:04 am
In this thread, Flack has acknowledged attending a Korn and Slipknot concert and said something positive about Korn's first album. This is honestly the ballsiest thing I've ever seen done on the Internet. To be fair, Flack may be getting away with this because some of the most incendiary and randomly aggro members of this BBS are no longer actively with us. Still, I'm impressed. The way pinback has let his Tool thread turn into a general Korn discussion thread without a word of protest is also the most gentlemanly thing I've ever seen him do.

All this heroism makes me, too, want to be brave. So, Flack, I'll ask you: is the first Korn album something I should listen to due to its historical importance? Is it something you'd recommend everyone experience, even if just once? Full disclosure: there's a good chance I won't actually listen to Korn's first album no matter what the answer here despite my keen and genuine interest in the subject. I just have no promises left to give. You see, I once promised a girl more than twenty years ago that I would read Interview with the Vampire, and that definitely hasn't happened yet. Maybe I'm in the process of assembling a media bucket list without even realizing it.
Korn's self-titled (major label) debut album was released in the fall of 1994, so to truly appreciate it for what it was, you have to go back to that time. Three years prior in the summer/fall of 1991, we got Nirvana's "Nevermind," Pearl Jam's "Ten," and Soundgarden's "Badmotorfinger." The following year saw Stone Temple Pilots' "Core" and Alice in Chains' "Dirt." Grunge (as we all know) killed 80s hair metal and sent many of the previous decade's rock and heavy metal bands scrambling. Three years later in 1994, we were getting more of the same -- Pearl Jam's "Vitalogy," Alice in Chains' "Jar of Flies," Stone Temple Pilots' "Purple," Nirvana's unplugged performance from MTV, and Soundgarden's "Superunknown." In addition to grunge, alternative music blew up with acts like Beck, the Cranberries, Bush, Live, Oasis, Bad Religion, and Weezer all charting with hit albums. That same year we got major label debuts from The Offspring and Green Day. It was a weird, eclectic period.

As a kid who grew up on metal there was this gap in time. You quit seeing new bands on Headbanger's Ball and the local radio station quit playing Metal Shop and everything was Guns N' Roses and Metallica and Megadeth -- and not "Master of Puppets" Metallica but, you know, "Enter Sandman" Metallica. But So toward the end of '94, again, you had this big wave of grunge hit a few years earlier and everybody was like, was that a one shot thing or is it here to stay, and then three years later all those same bands are releasing new records and lots of new bands are imitating those bands and it kind of felt like to me that metal was over.

The first Korn album was good in the sense that it was something new. There were two guitars, both tuned down, and one of them always seemed to just be making noise. Both guitarists had wicked distortion which sat just above a slappy bass in the mix. The drums were constantly busy, and then you had lead vocalist Jonathan Davis who alternated between singing, screaming, and occasionally babbling incoherently. Back to those guitars for a moment... Korn had some of the first seven string guitars I ever saw, and definitely were the first I knew of who used a 7 string to tune down (A-D-G-C-F-A-D) rather than up (Steve Vai). As a kid, drop D tuning was just about the heaviest thing I could imagine.

So, is Korn's first album worth a listen? Sure. The problem with hearing it today is that it sounds like a decade's worth of other nu-metal bands. It can be difficult to remember that at the time it came out, nothing else sounded like it.

First single was the first song off the first album... "Blind." That track laid down the sound not just for Korn, but nu-metal for years to come. If you can't get through that one there's no sense in continuing down that path.

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by RealNC » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:05 pm

Interesting. I had no idea metal died in the US. It was fine over here. What I remember from the 90's is Megadeth, Slayer, Anthrax, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Pantera, Kreator, Sodom... It never felt like anything "died". It was pretty alive.

(Oh, and Psy Trance. LOTS of it.)

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Flack » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:57 pm

Perhaps "died" is not the right word, but it was definitely being overshadowed by alternative, punk, and grunge. Both Metallica's Black album and Megadeth's Countdown to Extinction got plenty of airplay on local rock stations, but none of those others did. I'm going to guess you could ask a hundred metal heads here to name a single song from Kreator or Sodom and get little more than blank stares.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by pinback » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:27 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:29 am
I am okay with this discussion going to Korn, Slipknot, or any '90s nu-metal band, or even Ed Sheeran, because no matter what you're talking about, it's better music than anything in Jonsey's Top 100 list.
You literally said somewhere or here that these idiots in "nu metal" are playing the same five notes over and over again.
No, I said Tool and RATM only play the same five notes. They do it in a manner I enjoy, though.
There isn't a single person in Korn with more talent than whoever you think the least talented person is in Queen.
When I mentioned "ICJ's top 100", I meant the real one, which is just a bunch of punk-pop unlistenable garbage and Hall & Oates, and not the list you posted which had some Queen and Pink Floyd in there just to convince the passersby here that your musical taste is not completely beyond hope.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by pinback » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:32 pm

Anyway, here is the best song from the album. It is also the song in the live performance that was posted in the first post of this thread. It sounds better on the album. Please, enjoy. And then spend the next few days walking around going:

Badadadum dum, badadadum dum dum, badadadum dum, badadadum dum dum... (7:59)

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by bryanb » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:51 pm

Well, I just listened to Korn's "Blind" and Tool's "Invincible" back to back. It was a veritable AUDIO SHOWDOWN in front of my computer between two bands at the near peak of their powers, and it turns out I like Tool more than Korn! To be fair, that's what I would've said before the SHOWDOWN as well, but it's good to make it scientific. I encourage everyone to experience the SHOWDOWN for themselves and report back your individual results in this thread.

Still, I did get through "Blind" and did like it better than other Korn I've heard. I have to salute Flack for providing the only nuanced appraisal of Korn I've ever encountered. I honestly might listen to the whole album now. It kind of feels like I should, even if it's just so I can better understand music history. Flack, have you ever considered writing a book on the history of metal? I would definitely read that.

When The Black Album and Nevermind came out, I was mainly a classic rock fan, but I enjoyed both those albums at the time. It's interesting to think of them from Flack's perspective as marking the decline of metal in the mainstream consciousness. It's true of course, but I tend to think of metal as something that thrives best in the shadows anyway. Metallica's career trajectory reminds me somewhat of the Ramones. Both bands changed their sound in a very dramatic way, and many of their own fans assumed they did it only to make more money and achieve mainstream success. There has to be at least an element of truth to that. Still, maybe we can allow a little room for the possibility that both bands were a little tired of their old sound and wanted to try something new. People didn't get angry with David Bowie or Leonard Cohen for changing things up album to album, but the bands that help define their own genres don't get the same latitude. With both Metallica and the Ramones, the old stuff was definitely better, but I can't bring myself to totally hate songs like "Something To Believe In" or "Whiskey In The Jar-oh."

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Flack » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:34 am

I wouldn't imagine there would be a huge overlap between die-hard Tool fans and die-hard Korn fans. To me that's like asking which is better, a large pizza or an interesting piece of artwork. They're just two different things. I like Tool because they continue to do interesting and complex things, and I appreciate Korn because they gave metal a kick in the pants when it needed it, and influenced the music landscape for at least a decade. Some people may argue that wasn't a good thing, lol.

Metallica's Master of Puppets came out when I was in mid-high, which is when I got on the train. By the time ...And Justice For All was released, I had all the band's albums (cassettes). I had a cheap electric guitar with a shitty little amp that I used to play rhythm along with those albums while waiting for games to download at 1200 baud. I was so excited the night One premiered on Headbanger's Ball -- finally, the rest of the world would discover the greatest band in the world! Fast forward a couple of years and... well I will write a longer post about the Black album later.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:11 am

pinback wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:27 pm
your musical taste is not completely beyond hope.
Fuck yeah it isn't!
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Flack » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:58 am

I was at a club show in the fall/winter of '91, a couple of months after Nirvana's Nevermind was released. I don't remember who was playing that night, but here's what I do remember. Between bands, the house sound guy started playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and everybody in the club stopped talking and just stood around, listening to the music. When that song ended, "Come As You Are" began, and the same thing happened. Everyone in the club just stood still, looking like zombies. My most vivid memory of that night was that when it was time for the second band to go on, people screamed at the sound guy not to turn the album off. The concert got hijacked and went from being a club show to being a Nirvana listening party. This was before "Smells like Teen Spirit" was in heavy rotation on radio or MTV. I'm pretty sure every kid leaving the show that night went and bought that Nirvana album the next day. I know I did.

Prior to the release of Nevermind, metal bands were trying to be more extreme, not less. Megadeth's Rust in Peace, released in 1990, had tracks like Hangar 18 and Holy Wars, songs that got play on Headbanger's Ball but no radio stations (at least not around here). Same goes for Metallica's ...And Justice for All, with the almost ten-minute long title track and almost every song being more than six minutes in length. I've never heard a Slayer song on the radio around here (they didn't get played before 10pm on MTV). Our local rock station was not playing a lot of Pantera. Bands were getting heavier, not softer. I bought Sepultura's Chaos AD because I read about them in a magazine, not because I heard them on the radio.

Of course the seed to everything was planted with "One," the first Metallica song that the band shot a video for. It got played on Headbanger's Ball, caught some traction, and worked its way into regular rotation. Sales skyrocketed. It outsold every other previous Metallica album. It went platinum in two months. A five-minute radio-friendly version of "One" was released. Metallica was forced to make a choice -- did they want to keep releasing epic-length songs for the metal community, or did they want to make some compromises and live in mansions?

Spoiler: the average song length on Master of Puppets is 6:51. Average song length on And Justice for All is 7:17. The average song length on the band's Black album is 5:13. And how did that work out for them? According to Wikipedia:

"By September 2018, the album spent 500 weeks on the Billboard album chart, making it one of the four longest-running albums of all time. [The Black Album] is one of the best-selling albums worldwide, and also one of the best-selling albums in the United States since Nielsen SoundScan tracking began. The album was certified 16× platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) in 2012, and has sold over sixteen million copies in the United States, being the first album in the SoundScan era to do so."

Many other bands followed the trend. On Megadeth's Countdown to Extinction (1992), only two of the album's 11 tracks are longer than 5 minutes (one is 5:03). Result? Countdown to Extinction debuted at number two on the Billboard 200, went triple platinum, and (again, Wikipedia) "became their most commercially successful album."

For what it's worth, and this is just my opinion, I believe White Zombie's "Thunderkiss '65" had a big impact on metal at that same time. It's a metal song -- they're a metal band -- but the song structure is very pop oriented. It's very verse-chorus-verse with a simple riff, and so evey with a heavy guitar sound and Rob Zombie's nonsensical lyrics, it was all over the radio. And so for a couple of years, it seemed like every metal band was trying to copy Metallica or White Zombie's format to get on the radio, or Nirvana's blueprint.

This is all a very borind and long-winded way of explaining what happened to (US) metal between 1991 and 1994. TL;DR, big bands found financial success by changing their song structures to a more radio-friendly format, and it paid off. Many other bands followed suit.

This brings us full circle to 1994 and the release of Korn's debut album.
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by bryanb » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:03 pm

That's a good point about the Metallica song lengths shortening. It's crazy to think a mix tape of about three old Metallica songs could be around the same length as Slayer's Reign In Blood (which is itself proof positive metal songs don't HAVE to be long to be great). I haven't actually listened to Metallica's last few albums, but my understanding is that they have started doing longer songs again. To get back to their glory days, though, they need to put out songs that aren't just long but are also complex and exciting. I'm not sure they have it in them at this point. Flack, did you stop listening to Metallica completely after The Black Album?

Is it true that Metallica once said they would NEVER produce a music video? I've definitely heard that before, but never actually seen or heard the actual quote. It's easy to see why stuff like that could help create a fan backlash; how do you go from thinking you're too good to share airtime with Toto to becoming a genuine MTV darling?

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by pinback » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:58 pm

It also brings us to the point that Tool has now done the opposite of Metallica. They started with very reasonable, relatively radio-friendly song-lengths, got super popular, and decided to release an album after 13 years of nothing but sitcom-length songs and a drum solo which ends in a gong. In 2019.

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Bugs » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:44 am

Pneuma is my favorite track. I just ordered a license plate that reads as such.

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Jizaboz » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:25 pm

I finally heard a track off the new album in the radio while driving over the weekend. It's OK. I like the drums and that dude doesn't bellar when he sings much if at all anymore.

When it came on again the next day, I changed it to the classic rock station playing a Journey song instead however.

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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by pinback » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:18 am

Jizaboz wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:25 pm
bellar
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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by Jizaboz » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:17 am


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Re: Awww shit, boys.

Post by pinback » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:37 am

I learned something today!
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