The edit-able house thread

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Post by pinback »

Tdarcos wrote:You must get a lot of exercise from all the jumping to conclusions you make all the time.
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Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

Paul, you really, really, really don't know what you're talking about when it comes to buying, selling or renovating homes.

OK?
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Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

I seriously don't have time to destroy Paul's post because I am busy trying to fix a house. So there ya go, the irony of ironies.

Every thing you said, Paul, was at least 20 years out of date, with some of it 30. A mortgage isn't good debt! This is why I don't feel bad that you get shit on here. You stopped learning things in 1986. My bulletin boards are your last thread to the reality you are within, regardless of your kicking and screaming otherwise.
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Post by AArdvark »

Well I consider my real estate purchase 'good debt'. Want to know why?

No? Too bad.

I moved out of the city, away from the 7-11 down at the end of my street. Away from the riff-raff constantly walking to the 7-11 and talking in 120 decibel voices. I moved out from under the glide path of 747s coming into the Greater Rochester Int'l Airport. I moved away from 200 cars per hour driving down my street. I moved away from the distant but constant waterfall sound of I-490.

In short, I moved to where the quiet is. If I turn off the furnace (briefly) the entire house is absolutely still. There is no sound whatsoever. None.

Let me tell you, that sound is priceless.


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GOOD DEBT
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Post by Tdarcos »

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:I seriously don't have time to destroy Paul's post because I am busy trying to fix a house. So there ya go, the irony of ironies.

Every thing you said, Paul, was at least 20 years out of date, with some of it 30. A mortgage isn't good debt!
If mortgages are such good debt, why were there so many problems with them in 2008-2009 that the U.S. Federal government had to bail out AIG and every major bank to prevent them from going under?

Rents and mortgages are consumption debt, whether you rent a place or you're buying it you're still spending money on something that in and of itself does not produce income. A house might produce a profit, if you sell it. But a house does not produce income unless you are renting it to someone. Buy a house to rent it at a profit and that's a good idea. Buy a house to live in it and you should consider the mortgage on the same terms as any consumption purchase: can I afford it and is the thing I'm buying worth what I'm paying? Houses do have an advantage over cars in that cars depreciate while houses (usually) appreciate but sometimes house values fall or collapse.

And I'll just stop here since you have indicated you do not want my opinion. 1986 my ass.
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Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

Tdarcos wrote:If mortgages are such good debt, why were there so many problems with them in 2008-2009 that the U.S. Federal government had to bail out AIG and every major bank to prevent them from going under?
Mortgages owned by people who can afford them are awesome debt.
Rents and mortgages are consumption debt, whether you rent a place or you're buying it you're still spending money on something that in and of itself does not produce income.
All rented properties in the United States are completely paid off, and none have or ever have a mortgage. That's what you're saying.

In fact, a lot of people will put their home up for rent for one month, because that cancels the mortgage!

Buy a house to live in it and you should consider the mortgage on the same terms as any consumption purchase: can I afford it and is the thing I'm buying worth what I'm paying? Houses do have an advantage over cars in that cars depreciate while houses (usually) appreciate but sometimes house values fall or collapse.
Virtually all houses increase in value over the life of a mortgage. Not all cars depreciate, many appreciate in value. There are incredible tax benefits to owning a home.

And I'll just stop here since you have indicated you do not want my opinion. 1986 my ass.
Your ideas about homes and mortgages ARE stuck in 1986, but let's get something very clear, please: I value your opinion and you should always feel free to post it.
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Post by Tdarcos »

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Tdarcos wrote:If mortgages are such good debt, why were there so many problems with them in 2008-2009 that the U.S. Federal government had to bail out AIG and every major bank to prevent them from going under?
Mortgages owned by people who can afford them are awesome debt.
That's not what I asked and you completely ducked my question.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Tdarcos wrote:Rents and mortgages are consumption debt, whether you rent a place or you're buying it you're still spending money on something that in and of itself does not produce income.
All rented properties in the United States are completely paid off, and none have or ever have a mortgage. That's what you're saying.
No, that's not what I'm saying, you are fully aware that's not what I'm saying and you're being obtuse. As I noted further on, I'm dividing housing expenses into two types. Those purchased or rented for one's own use, and those purchased to rent them to someone else. Explain where I ever said rented places are paid off or don't have a mortgage. Quote me and show me where I said that.

The landlord of my place owns several places. The one he owns for he and his family to live in is a consumption debt. The ones he rents out - like the one I live in - are income producing debt. All of them have mortgages.

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:In fact, a lot of people will put their home up for rent for one month, because that cancels the mortgage!
Yeah, right, a 360 month mortgage is cancelled by a one month rental. When you decide to talk like someone who doesn't have incurable insanity, get back to me.
Buy a house to live in it and you should consider the mortgage on the same terms as any consumption purchase: can I afford it and is the thing I'm buying worth what I'm paying? Houses do have an advantage over cars in that cars depreciate while houses (usually) appreciate but sometimes house values fall or collapse.
Virtually all houses increase in value over the life of a mortgage.
Try again. What do you think the HARP program was for? To bail out a lot of people who have houses where they are now "underwater," the value of the house - what the house is worth on the open market - fell below the mortgage owed.

This happened before back in the 1980s during the S&L Crisis. A lot of properties went way down in value, and they stayed down for years. I think it took more than 10-15 years for the housing market to come back in some parts of the country.
Not all cars depreciate, many appreciate in value.
I think the number is more like 90% depreciate. "Many" would imply a large percentage of vehicles increase in value. I've yet to see a year where a car that's a year older didn't go down in value except for a small number of luxury or premium automobiles.
There are incredible tax benefits to owning a home.
Yes, there are tax benefits, if you can use them. Some people can't (be glad you don't make enough to owe Alternative Minimum Tax; you lose a ton of deductions you otherwise would have if you weren't hit with AMT). And if your income is already in a form that's tax sheltered or tax exempt then it doesn't help much.
And I'll just stop here since you have indicated you do not want my opinion. 1986 my ass.
Your ideas about homes and mortgages ARE stuck in 1986, but let's get something very clear, please: I value your opinion and you should always feel free to post it.
Again, answer my points. If I'm so wrong and that housing always goes up in value why did we need the HARP program to rescue a lot of people who now owned houses where the value of the house was less than the amount owed on the mortgage, and why did so many banks have trouble that they had to be bailed out in 2008-2009 over bad mortgages?
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Post by Flack »

Because, harp program.

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Post by Tdarcos »

Let me be a little bit clearer here.

If you purchase a place to live in, or you choose to rent, your analysis should be based on how much it's going to cost you and is it within the range of what you can afford, as a consumption expense. For some people they are far better off renting, especially those who move a lot.

If you purchase a place in order to rent it out, then you can take into consideration the tax benefits as part of the cost of ownership and whether the income from rentals, plus tax-advantaged phantom depreciation, make the property a good investment. For some people it might be worth losing two or three hundred a month for the first two or three years until rents can be raised to where it stops losing money.

You cannot do the same financial consideration when buying a house for your own use because houses bought for use are consumption debt. It is entirely possible you may have to move, you may have a family change which requires you get rid of the property, and the need to do so could occur at a time when you have to sell and the sale might end up being at a loss because the mortgage is more than what you can sell it for. (Or, if you think you can get away with not being sued, just walking away and letting them foreclose, if they won't accept a deed in lieu of sale.)

Do the calculation this way and you don't get into trouble. Too many people didn't consider that prices can and do drop and sometimes market values stay below the amount of debt owed for years.

I wrote about the whole thing over 6 years ago in my blog.
* If your loan remains the same or resets to a higher amount, and you can make your payments even if your loan is more than the value of your home, you do not have a problem. (This is the situation my landlord is in with this place; home values have fallen to where this house is worth less than the mortgage, but it doesn't matter because me and the tenants pay the costs).
* If your loan resets to higher payments, but you can refinance it, you do not have a problem,
* If your loan resets to higher payments that you now can't afford, or you are having a cash crunch and are having to refinance but you have no equity, now you have a problem.
* If you get to the point that the payment structure changes that you can't pay the payments, now you are in trouble.

And a lot of people got into trouble because they did not make the consideration that when you purchase a place to live in it you must consider the cost to be a consumption expense and should not presume that you can refinance it later or that the price might go up.
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Post by Flack »

Explain it again, but with twice as many words.
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Post by AArdvark »

A couple quick updates..




The spare bedroom. The kid that used to live here had a dart set. Little bastard, he must have been monster child. Lots of spackling for me and I still missed a couple holes.
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And the new paint..
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The dining area is 99.9% done, yay! Just a couple more pieces of baseboard and some shoe trim and we can eat in style.

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One other quick note. I'm installing a super cool cat door to the basement so Toonces can get to his litter box. This is the last owner's solution to cat basement access:

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To me that's just plain redneck. We're replacing that cheapo door with a nice 6 panel one like the bedroom doors and I wont be cutting any holes in that. Instead, I'm making a cool cat door from the computer room to the top of the basement steps. Just started framing it in with drops from the rest of the woodwoork. Gonna use leftover flooring to do the sides and bottom. Eventually it'll have a bead curtain across it or maybe those overlapping plastic strips. The cat loves it already.
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Post by Tdarcos »

AArdvark wrote:One other quick note. I'm installing a super cool cat door to the basement so Toonces can get to his litter box.
Keep him away from your car keys, though. I saw what happened the last time.
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Post by AArdvark »

Those are my favorite SNL bits!
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Post by AArdvark »

Quick update!


Every door is replaced! Stained and oiled, bathroom has three coats cause it gets wetter than your average door.
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Little more trim and I can begin work on the basement studio.


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Post by AArdvark »

Well, the sewage sump pump for the basement toilet died. Must have been something I ate...Kidding! The washing machine drain was routed through it even though it didn't need to be. It was an old model and I think it got worked to death moving all that laundry water.
Replacing it is expensive for something as pointless as a basement toilet so I had an idea...

See, the basement is pretty much going to be my studio / workbench area. So instead of putting a full toilet down there I install a urinal only. The liquid only kind of sump pump is way cheaper and I can still remove the used beer, wash my hands and even take a shower (if I decide to put one in). The only thing I can't do down there is move bowels. It's a win-win!
Besides, the drain plumbing is all redneck rigged so I'll be able to fix all that at the same time.

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Post by AArdvark »

OK, basement sewage pump is all better. I just cowboy-drained* up and put in another pump that can handle waste. All the drains are new and modern now. Yay, I can sleep (and crap) peacefully knowing my basement wont get gross.
I think I mentioned it earlier here but of all the home improvement arenas, plumbing is by far the most odious to me.
( Clenches fist in front seat of biplane.." I hate plumbing, Jock. I hate it!")

The next big thing is attic insulation, but that's just me writing a check after the guys come out and do it. Crawling around on those attic trusses is a young person's job.


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*Cowboy draining up is a made-up term for not cheaping out on the job. It's spending the money that needs to be spent to do the job properly.
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Post by AArdvark »

Quick update, the first of 2016. Started insulating the basement studio. I knew putting the music computer in the TV would get me started on the rest of the room. I have a vision and it's time to make it real.

Attic is all insulated (not by me, thank god). I don't know how those guys did it in seven hours but it's done and ready for winter.

Meanwhile, upstairs:
Hallway trim is 98.9 percent done. After that...I dunno. Maybe replace the front hall closet door. I'll find something.

I need to run ethernet to the basement. I'm on the fence about making it in-the-wall modular or just have a blank switchplate with the wire coming out of it. Modular would look better but it's never going to be seen by anyone. There's going to be this big TV in front of the plate.

Ooh, I just thought of something. Can I run ethernet from my upstairs router to a downstairs router and use that as a splitter?


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Post by Tdarcos »

AArdvark wrote:Ooh, I just thought of something. Can I run ethernet from my upstairs router to a downstairs router and use that as a splitter?
Yes, but it may cause some loss of performance because you're getting "double DHCPd" in which your internet service provider gives you a modem or router that gives you your public IP address, said device you are connecting to giving your downstream devices that connect to it a DHCP address, including the second router, and anything connecting to it will then have a secondary DHCP assignment from that router.

I have done it and it worked okay, although I think I had a problem when I was doing "triple DHCP" in which Comcast supplies a cable modem that gives out 10.x.x.x addresses, that was connected to my wireless router giving out 192.168.0.x addresses, and that had a wire running to a second wireless router giving out 192.168.1.x addresses, because someone else in the house had trouble picking up the signal from the first one. I eventually changed things around to eliminate needing a second router.

If you do install a second router, make sure you go into the setup and change one of them so that it uses a different assignment than 192.168.0.xxx, change one of them to something else, like giving out 192.168.1.xxx for its assignments, first so you don't have routing errors because the IP addresses on the second router duplicate upstream addresses, and second so you know, in case you're using a wireless device, which router it's connecting to.

Separate option: if you don't require wireless for anything connecting to the lower one, buy a switch rather than a router, and unless you need it for wireless connectivity it may be a better choice; the switch will combine all the traffic on the upstream connection just as your router would.

The prices are roughly the same. I have a Keebox 8-port switch, I think it was $25, and my Tenda 4-port wired+wireless router costs $19.95 at Micro Center. Tenda also sells 100MB wireless adapters. Micro Center has them at $9.95.
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Post by Flack »

AArdvark wrote:Ooh, I just thought of something. Can I run ethernet from my upstairs router to a downstairs router and use that as a splitter?
Yes. (You said "router" and meant "switch." I knew what you meant.) Ethernet's good for 100 meters (~333 feet) so you should be able to run a cable through the walls to a switch downstairs, no problem.
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Post by Tdarcos »

Flack wrote:
AArdvark wrote:Ooh, I just thought of something. Can I run ethernet from my upstairs router to a downstairs router and use that as a splitter?
Yes. (You said "router" and meant "switch." I knew what you meant.) Ethernet's good for 100 meters (~333 feet) so you should be able to run a cable through the walls to a switch downstairs, no problem.
That's a good point, but I took it both ways as he might not be able to use a switch, if he needs wireless connectivity where he can't receive the upstairs one, possibly because of interference through walls/floors/ceilings, it is possible he does need another router.

On the other hand you may be correct and he can simply use a switch, but we really can't be certain until he replies.
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