When the ATM screws you

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Knuckles the CLown
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When the ATM screws you

Post by Knuckles the CLown »

Thank you for using ESL Online Chat. A representative will be with you shortly. You are number 1 in queue. If you are logged into Internet Banking, please be sure to keep your session active to avoid your chat session from expiring.
You are now chatting with Julie .
How may we assist you today?
Julie: HI Michael
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: i just took money out of the ATM on lake and 104
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: and the money never came out
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: and the it said trnasaction was canceled
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: i went to the other ATM and took the money out
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: I got it and noticed my balance refelected me taking 40 out twice

Julie: I would be happy to assist you with that.
Julie: To dispute an ATM transaction, please complete an ATM dispute form The completed form may be faxed to 585.336.1524.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: are you freaking kiddign me

Julie: Please complete this form and we can credit your account the $40.00

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: no
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: why do i have to complete a form send somebody out to fix your machine
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: and how long is this going to take
Julie: It should only take a few business days.
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: not everyone has a fax sitting in there house

Julie: It can also be dropped off to any ESL branch.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: great your machine breaks and I gotta wait 5 days to get $40 bucks back

Julie: I apologize for any inconvenience caused to you.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: how about you credit my account, then when they check the machine the will notice it has $40 extra dollars in it. since it wasn't my mistake

Julie: I understand your frustration Michael. Once the form has been submitted, our Fraud team can do so.
Julie: Do you have any additional questions I can help you with?

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: is there a manager i can talk to?

Julie: I can have my Supervisor contact you. May I please have the best phone number at which you can be reached?

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: 303-3404

Julie: Thank you.
Julie: A manager is in again tomorrow. I will request a manager calls you.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: when can i expect to hear from them
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: I mean what if I didnt have any other money in my account, what would your solution be then?

Julie: We would not be able to research this issue until tomorrow.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: wow, thats good to know. So policy is if your ATM breaks the burden of proof is on the member a form has to be faxed and an investigation has to be made
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: rather than you just taking a risk and putting $40 in my account which you could take back if you found out i was lying

Julie: The form is needed to begin the process. A manager will call you tomorrow.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: well what are you going to do about the machine? im concerned less foruntate people may get duped tonight
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: maybe someone is taking out money for their food for the weekend, they might not be able to wait till thursday for their money

Julie: I understand Michael. I have reported this.
Julie: A manager will call you
Julie: Have a good evening.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: what about the ATM though what if it is still taking cards and not dispensing money?
Julie: I have reported this.
Julie: have a good evening Michael
Julie: Thank you for using ESL Online Chat.
Julie: Have a good evening.
Julie: To end your chat, please click on "Close" in the upper right corner of the chat window.
This session has ended.
Please feel free to contact us again
the last group complained, quite tellingly They said, "Why don't you have a spoon that just says 'Earth?' It would save time

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Tdarcos
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Re: When the ATM screws you

Post by Tdarcos »

Knuckles the CLown wrote:Julie: I would be happy to assist you with that.
Julie: To dispute an ATM transaction, please complete an ATM dispute form The completed form may be faxed to 585.336.1524.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: are you freaking kiddign me
There are two very good reasons for this. Actually three.

First, a written order eliminates disputes; did you claim $20, $40 or $60? Did you say that a transaction in the amount of $16 was wrong, or did you say $60? (Do you think someone can't misunderstand "sixteen" and "sixty"?)

Second, if you just lie to them over the phone - and if you think someone would not lie just to scam the bank out of $40, I suggest you think again - they may not be able to prove it. There might not be a way to prove it. Also, it could be someone else on the phone pretending to be you - who knows your personal information - in order to get you in trouble.

In the movie "Midnight Run" two bounty hunters are after a guy; one of them knows the personal information of the other, and uses social engineering to find out what method of transportation the other bounty hunter took his prisoner by pretending to be the real guy so he can figure out where he "forgot" his credit card. He discovers "he" used it at Amtrak, so the guy knows the other guy (the one he's impersonating) is traveling by train to Los Angeles. He also tells them to cancel that card, which will probably cripple the guy since he doesn't have another one. A little unlikely in the real world but not entirely farfetched.

Maybe someone doing identity theft purely to inconvenience you - as opposed to ripping you off - is unlikely, does not mean it is impossible. Some people do have enemies, and identity theft involving larceny can be proven by showing where the thefts occurred, identity theft involving impersonation to cause inconvenience is probably all but impossible to prove who did it.

Third, if you send them a form it's typically given with a statement that it's under penalty of perjury, meaning that if you lied to them and they find out, they can charge you with perjury as well as the underlying fraud.
Julie: Please complete this form and we can credit your account the $40.00

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: no
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: why do i have to complete a form send somebody out to fix your machine
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: and how long is this going to take
Julie: It should only take a few business days.
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: not everyone has a fax sitting in there house
Here, she made a mistake. She should have given you the bank's mailing address at this point. Sending them a form by fax is the fastest way to get it to them. E-mail is probably not acceptable because it doesn't have legal standing; the courts have not ruled on the admissibility of e-mail forms and it is arguable - trivially arguable - that the form could have been done by someone impersonating you. Is my e-mail address really paul@mailinator.com or is that a drop box anyone can use? If you guess it's a public e-mail drop box, you're right on the money.

Fact is, if you fax it in, and you're lying; it's wire fraud and perjury; plus if the call is long distance there are toll ticket records that can trace where the call came from; if it's a local call the phone company has SMDR records; if you're lying and you mail it in, then it's mail fraud and perjury; if you bring it in, it's still perjury. The penalties are about the same for wire fraud and mail fraud. But they still need it in writing in case they do find out you're lying in order to have evidence to prosecute. Unless they record the conversation - which again, might be someone else pretending to be you - there's no evidence other than that someone - who may or may not be you - claimed you lost money.

I had the same thing happen with Bank of America, someone used my card to charge gasoline. The bank took my report over the phone and did an immediate credit (by "immediate" I mean that the bank credits the money and you have temporary use of it by the next day, which I consider reasonable), but I was required to send a written followup, which they mailed me the form for. I explained to the woman that I use a manual wheelchair, don't own a car and know I didn't buy gas.

Since you want your money a lot sooner than they find out the machine was broken and reconcile all accounts, you have to do it their way.
Julie: It can also be dropped off to any ESL branch.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: great your machine breaks and I gotta wait 5 days to get $40 bucks back

Julie: I apologize for any inconvenience caused to you.
That's one difference that, as much as I find Barf of Anemia's customer service practices vomituous, BofA will do an immediate credit if you call them, subject to the requirement that you return the form they send you within a couple of weeks, otherwise they'll reverse the credit if you don't respond. This is something this bank should do as a matter of course if you're a regular customer.

I went over to PNC bank a few months ago because they authorized a bunch of debit card transactions which caused an electronic overdraft on the checking account I use, after the federal law went into effect requiring checking accounts to default to "opt in" for allowing electronic overdrafts. (Notice the phrasing I used, I did not say "my checking account;" you'll understand why in a moment.)

Well, I go to a PNC Bank Branch and I discover that for a corporate (or other commercial) checking account, the rule that debit card charges that cause an overdraft are automatically opt-out unless you specifically choose to opt-in, do not apply. It's the bank's choice on whether to make them opt-in or opt-out if you don't request it, and of course, unless they have to, they put accounts in opt-in mode because the bank gets more fees if they can issue an automatic overdraft with a fee of $35 on a $1.50 overdraft, for example.

PNC was nice enough to reverse all the service charges, after I said, well, yeah, I can pay the overdraft amounts, I had the cash if the charge had been declined, and if I had known that I would have been allowed to do electronic overdrafts I would have asked for the account to be marked "opt out."

So, basically I paid the $75 in overdrafts and PNC waived about $125 in overdraft fees, then - which is what I wanted - marked my debiit card to decline overdrafts. I can say "my card", while the checking account the card is tied to, technically belongs to Viridian Development Corporation, the card does have my name on it. The corporation's management does have the power to revoke my card if they choose to do so. However, since I am the sole officer of the corporation and sole member of the board of directors, I find that highly unlikely.
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: how about you credit my account, then when they check the machine the will notice it has $40 extra dollars in it. since it wasn't my mistake

Julie: I understand your frustration Michael. Once the form has been submitted, our Fraud team can do so.
Julie: Do you have any additional questions I can help you with?

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: is there a manager i can talk to?

Julie: I can have my Supervisor contact you. May I please have the best phone number at which you can be reached?

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: 303-3404

Julie: Thank you.
Julie: A manager is in again tomorrow. I will request a manager calls you.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: when can i expect to hear from them
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: I mean what if I didnt have any other money in my account, what would your solution be then?
Learn not to choose to leave yourself in a helpless and vulnerable state. Once you get burned by an incident like this - if you weren't smart enough not to allow it to happen to you in the first place - the inconvenience and pain you feel from this makes you learn to keep an emergency reserve of $5 to $20 at home so you don't get in trouble.

If you can't do this because you can't scrape $5 or $10 or up to $20 to set aside for emergencies, maybe you need to open a lemonade stand or do some odd jobs for people until you can raise maybe $5 or $10 to have an emergency reserve at home.

This doesn't just apply to money, it also includes other things you have to have, like food.

I ordered cans of cream of mushroom soup and potato soup, which while I do like them, I normally don't eat; I have those for emergency rations if I get really broke (which almost never happens) before my check comes in, or if I want something to eat because I need a snack when I can't go to a store, like at 10 O'clock at night, then it's there.

If you don't budget your money, run out and allow yourself to be in such immediate danger that if you can't get $20 out of the bank you're in a state of emergency, well you deserve it. Anyone who bets their life on the complete functioning of technology is the one who suffers if they lose the bet. Machine failure, network failure, being out of cash, any number of things can happen to ATM machines that means you can't get money out.

Allowing yourself to be absolutely dependent upon ATM access in emergencies will mean you're in trouble if you allow yourself to get in trouble if you keep eating and eating all your cash and don't leave any "seed corn" as a reserve against emergencies.

Farmers learned this a long time ago; you don't eat all the wheat, you don't grind all of the wheat; you save some as seed for replanting, if the feed store does have adequate supplies, then you can use the last of the seed, and typically the farmer's wife makes a special batch of loaves of bread using the saved wheat and they celebrate the end of harvest. If there's a problem, then you plant the saved wheat instead and you've saved yourself from disaster.

This is the reason a lot of places are banning Monsanto from selling its patented seeds because their licensing requirements mandate an unsafe and dangerous practice: forbidding farmers from saving seed for later use; if you're a farmer using Monsanto's patented seed, your "license" is only good for that one season, and saving seed is prohibited. This is a dangerous practice that could lead to disaster if proper farming practices - learned over thousands of years - are not followed.

One of the ways I make sure I have cash on hand is to buy a roll or two of quarters - most banks and credit unions will sell you a $10 roll of quarters at the low, low price of $10 - break it open and put it in my change tray. I nominally ignore it and forget it's there, but when I have an emergency - like a tip for the pizza delivery guy - and say, all I have is a $10 or a $20, I don't have to ask him to make change, I can grab a couple of bucks in quarters. I did it tonight when I ordered a steak and cheese pizza from Dominos.

Otherwise I have the quarters for the laundromat.
Julie: We would not be able to research this issue until tomorrow.
Most businesses don't do things after business hours. If you were calling them at 10 in the morning, that's a different story. If you called them at 3 in the afternoon, it's probably too late (that day) to open an investigation.
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: wow, thats good to know. So policy is if your ATM breaks the burden of proof is on the member a form has to be faxed and an investigation has to be made
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: rather than you just taking a risk and putting $40 in my account which you could take back if you found out i was lying
Julie: The form is needed to begin the process. A manager will call you tomorrow.
She's a droid, she has no authority to make changes. Hell, she could be a prisoner that the state has hired out to accept phone calls, and does nothing but take information. Some states are doing that to try and monetize all of the labor available from prisoners, and it's a lot better for a prisoner to be offered the opportunity to answer phone calls as opposed to cutting crops on the prison farm or breaking rocks.
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: well what are you going to do about the machine? im concerned less foruntate people may get duped tonight
MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: maybe someone is taking out money for their food for the weekend, they might not be able to wait till thursday for their money
Here I agree with you. Again, B of A will accept a phone report, will credit you with the money by the next day, then gives you time to return the form to them. You might send a letter to the president of the bank - and possibly carbon copy some newspapers - mentioning this when you remove your money from their bank and go to one with better customer service.

But you need to look at how you live your life if you put your very life on the line and have so little left that you don't have any emergency money. Most people frivolously spend everything to the limits of what they make and more, and then, when something goes wrong, they don't even have enough reserve to handle being without funds for a couple of days. And they have no one else to blame for their pickle but themselves.

What is the probability that someone who has no money has no extra possessions, has managed their money properly, makes no frivolous spending and yet has enough to leave something in the bank that now they're in trouble if they can't get to $20? Sounds a lot like someone who is normally acting improvidently who is reaping what they sow.

I am a Social Security Disability recipient who gets food stamps (it's an automatic eligibility thing), but I still have savings in my credit union, I have a brand-new computer I just bought, that when the bill for my credit card comes in next month I will pay off, as I do every month, and I have no debt. I watch my expenses and I don't spend everything; while I don't save as much as I think I should I do save something.

This is notwithstanding the fact I'm not getting them right now because I lost my food stamp card and, despite reporting it, twice, the welfare office has made no effort over several months, to get them to reissue it.

I think most of the people who would be in a pickle of the type you describe because of failures of systems and technology are people making substantially more money than I get either in SSDI and government grants, and despite having what should be a fairly decent income, they fail to manage it properly, then they "reap the whirlwind" when trouble happens.

Bad as it sounds, a person who gets welfare and can't set aside money in an account would probably be better off because they know they are in trouble if they can't get to some money.
Julie: I understand Michael. I have reported this.
Julie: A manager will call you
Julie: Have a good evening.

MICHAEL N. SHERWIN: what about the ATM though what if it is still taking cards and not dispensing money?
Julie: I have reported this.
Julie: have a good evening Michael
Julie: Thank you for using ESL Online Chat.
Julie: Have a good evening.
Julie: To end your chat, please click on "Close" in the upper right corner of the chat window.
This session has ended.
Please feel free to contact us again
Well, she says she reported it. She has no power to make the bank do anything, she's a low-level employee and has done what she can. You got a problem, you should escalate. You can try asking for a supervisor, and if you can't get one, you call the bank's home office and ask for a manager and keep escalating until you get satisfaction.

Or you do what I did. I was in Denver about 1972 or so, and there was a sign in a telephony display for Mountain Bell mentioning they offer tours. I went in to find out about it, and discovered they're only for groups. So, I did what any normal 12-year-old would do. I called the headquarters of Mountain Bell and asked for the President's office and complained. You don't actually get him, of course, you get a high-level flack in the President's complaint office who does have the authority to get people to do something.

Within 1/2 an hour of calling the office of the President of Mountain Bell Telephone Company someone came out and they gave me a tour of the exhibit. I was pleased about it, learned a great deal and thanked them.
Alan Francis wrote a book containing everything men understand about women. It consisted of 100 blank pages.

The Happiness Engine

Post by The Happiness Engine »

Oh my god I'm not reading that.

So what may have happened is the machine locally canceled the transaction but the temporary hold on your account still exists until it's reconciled. That will happen in a day or so. I had the same thing happen once and thought my account got drained. Everything turned out fine with no effort on my part.

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Knuckles the CLown
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Post by Knuckles the CLown »

I understand the whole deal. I just like pointing out the absurdity and having some poor manager at some point have to read my complaint and what a clusterfuck it is to get $40 bucks back.

What I ended up doing is going to the ATM right next to it and getting the $40 I needed. It was when I got home I noticed I got double dipped. Its not the money, its the pain in the ass.

If I walked into the bank and handed them a deposit slip and $40 had them complete the transaction, then walked behind the counter and grabbed $40 and put back in my pocket and said "transaction cancelled" I'm quite certain the bank would not be happy to fill out a Michael Sherwin Bank Deposit Dispuit Form. They would probably call the police.
the last group complained, quite tellingly They said, "Why don't you have a spoon that just says 'Earth?' It would save time

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pinback
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Post by pinback »

Knuckles the CLown wrote:I understand the whole deal. I just like pointing out the absurdity and having some poor manager at some point have to read my complaint and what a clusterfuck it is to get $40 bucks back.

What I ended up doing is going to the ATM right next to it and getting the $40 I needed. It was when I got home I noticed I got double dipped. Its not the money, its the pain in the ass.

If I walked into the bank and handed them a deposit slip and $40 had them complete the transaction, then walked behind the counter and grabbed $40 and put back in my pocket and said "transaction cancelled" I'm quite certain the bank would not be happy to fill out a Michael Sherwin Bank Deposit Dispuit Form. They would probably call the police.
This doesn't work as social commentary anymore. It works as an Andy Rooney skit, and he's dead. So I guess it doesn't even work as that anymore.
I don't have to say anything. I'm a doctor, too.

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Knuckles the CLown
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Post by Knuckles the CLown »

pinback wrote:
Knuckles the CLown wrote:I understand the whole deal. I just like pointing out the absurdity and having some poor manager at some point have to read my complaint and what a clusterfuck it is to get $40 bucks back.

What I ended up doing is going to the ATM right next to it and getting the $40 I needed. It was when I got home I noticed I got double dipped. Its not the money, its the pain in the ass.

If I walked into the bank and handed them a deposit slip and $40 had them complete the transaction, then walked behind the counter and grabbed $40 and put back in my pocket and said "transaction cancelled" I'm quite certain the bank would not be happy to fill out a Michael Sherwin Bank Deposit Dispuit Form. They would probably call the police.
This doesn't work as social commentary anymore. It works as an Andy Rooney skit, and he's dead. So I guess it doesn't even work as that anymore.


NGHGGGGGGGGHFDFAAY nothing could possibly funny on the internet!

Hey dickhead have you wrote anything remotley interesting/funny in the last 7 years that someone other than your mom or life partner would pretend to like?
the last group complained, quite tellingly They said, "Why don't you have a spoon that just says 'Earth?' It would save time

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Flack
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Post by Flack »

You won't get an apology from him, Knuckles. I still use this, from time to time. It makes me feel better.

http://robohara.com/pinback/
"I failed a savings throw and now I am back."

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pinback
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Post by pinback »

Knuckles the CLown wrote:Hey dickhead have you wrote anything remotley interesting/funny in the last 7 years that someone other than your mom or life partner would pretend to like?
Not really, no.
I don't have to say anything. I'm a doctor, too.

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Ice Cream Jonsey
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Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

Yeah, I know that in seven years you would have expected the man to have pieced together something he was proud about, Knuckles, but pinback's been Content DDT lately. We should all think less of him for it.
the dark and gritty...Ice Cream Jonsey!

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