Understanding police misconduct

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Tdarcos
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Understanding police misconduct

Post by Tdarcos »

In this post on the rioting in Minnesota,
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:41 pm These guys in this thread drive me crazy.

https://www.caltrops.com/pointy.php?act ... pid=201386

I don't have time to get into it but it's just one objectionable comment after another over there.
Jonsey, I'm not sure what your objection is. Seemed like the comments were reasonable. At least one example was where on video, an old man was talking to a police officer, maybe he was angry, but the (Buffalo) Police officer, in riot gear, shoved the man, who had not touched him, to the ground so hard he was bleeding. Then the cop who shoved him and at least three other cops just walked on, as if nothing happened. Nobody even bothered to check him. I think the only reason there wasn't public outrage was because the 71-year-old man was white.

One poster on Caltrops said it perfectly:
Mayor: Can't you guys stop beating up civilians, especially on camera, at least for the next 72 hours?
Cops: Nope!

There was video by a man who claimed to be a police officer, who declared what was done in Minneapolis to George Floyd was murder. And Derek Chauvin's cop buddies who were there did nothing to stop him.

The Floyd killing has caused thew kind of national outrage I don't think I've seen in my life.

I saw a video (on YouTube, not as parrt of the Caltrops postings) of a clearly upset black woman talking about buildings being burned. She pointed out, in civilized society, there is supposed to be a social contract, we have laws to protect everyone, and police to enforce those laws. And the police are supposed to treat the public responsibly, as professionals, and to respect everyone's rights. But what has happened is, they broke the social contract. Once they've broken the social contract, they've indicated they're not civilized, so it doesn't matter, we don't have to be either, "and I hope the rioters burn everything down."

I can understand her outrage, and she might be right. except if you burn your own neighborhood, you've got nothing.

Or they might get smart. One man was talking to his housekeeper during the 1965 Watts riot, and she spoke about the looting and rioting. 'They're stupid. If they were smart, they'd do that to Beverly Hills. The next ones will." The man decided to take heed of her comments, sold his property and moved out of the Los Angeles area.

Personally, I think this country is on a knife edge, and the last thing we need is stupid cops acting irresponsibly, and while they know they are being filmed. Police supervisors all over the country should be telling their officers to use extra tact, extra caution and be even more careful than usual.

Because, the cops have been lucky. Another stupid incident like the Floyd killing, and those looters will come to the same conclusion, that the social contract has been broken, they won't be robbing TV stores, they'll be robbing gun shops. And sooner or later these cops drive home, where they are an easy target for someone with a grudge. If you've got nothing to lose, then you're liable to do anything.

But let's hear your thoughts from the other side, police actions/accountability/responsibility/miconduct. What about the idea of "defunding" or "abolishing" police?

"Defunding" does not mean zeroing the police budget, it means reducing it and spending it on other things. Like if there is a call about a domestic dispute (like arguing) the 9-1-1 PSAP doesn't send two armed police officers, they send two people trained in conflict resolution. You want to de-escallate, allow both to calm down, maybe explain their side, and if they are not mad at each other (and aren't going to fight anymore) leave them be. If necessary (such as domestic partner abuse) then police can be called for what they are supposed to do, arrest him or her. (Surprisingly, I found out that female-on-male domestic abuse is not rare, it is only slightly less common than the inverse.)

Police are supposed to investigate crimes, collect evidence and arrest people. That's all. But so many other agencies that could respond instead have been eliminated that in some cases, police are the only resource available. Mental health treatment is so deficient that police and jails are the #1 handlers and providers of mental health services.

"Abolishing" police means you eliminate the police department (which eliminates the union contract making it impossible to fire brutal cops) and start something new where all current police have to reupply, and you might get rid of the worst bad apples.

But let's hear your thoughts from the other side, police actions/accountability/responsibility/miconduct. What about the idea of "defunding" or "abolishing" police?
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AArdvark
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by AArdvark »

What did the old man say to the policeman to get himself pushed to the ground? There doesn't seem to be any kind of recording of that.

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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Flack »

AArdvark wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:00 am What did the old man say to the policeman to get himself pushed to the ground? There doesn't seem to be any kind of recording of that.
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Flack »

Tdarcos wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:13 am I think the only reason there wasn't public outrage was because the 71-year-old man was white.
Video of Buffalo police shoving 75-year-old man sparks outrage
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/police-in ... -1.5599674

Outrage over police pushing elderly man to ground video


Buffalo Officers Charged With Assault As Outrage Grows Over Clashes With Protesters


Outrage emerges after police incidents involving people caught on cam in Buffalo, New York
https://www.newsbreak.com/new-york/buff ... o-new-york

Outrage swirls over video of violent police clashes


"The incident, just one of dozens of examples of excessive force caught on camera in the past two weeks, stirred outrage..."
https://theintercept.com/2020/06/05/buf ... hows-lied/

"The video of the encounter sparked outrage online as demonstrators take to cities across the country to protest Floyd’s death."
https://time.com/5849521/buffalo-office ... d-assault/

"Video from public radio station WBFO of Thursday night’s encounter, which happened near the conclusion of protests over the death of George Floyd in Minnesota, quickly sparked public outrage..."
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-w ... story.html

I mean, it seems like there might have been some outrage.
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by pinback »

Outrageous!
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

Tdarcos wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:13 am In this post on the rioting in Minnesota,
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:41 pm These guys in this thread drive me crazy.

https://www.caltrops.com/pointy.php?act ... pid=201386

I don't have time to get into it but it's just one objectionable comment after another over there.
Jonsey, I'm not sure what your objection is. Seemed like the comments were reasonable. At least one example was where on video, an old man was talking to a police officer, maybe he was angry, but the (Buffalo) Police officer, in riot gear, shoved the man, who had not touched him, to the ground so hard he was bleeding. Then the cop who shoved him and at least three other cops just walked on, as if nothing happened. Nobody even bothered to check him. I think the only reason there wasn't public outrage was because the 71-year-old man was white.

One poster on Caltrops said it perfectly:
Mayor: Can't you guys stop beating up civilians, especially on camera, at least for the next 72 hours?
Cops: Nope!

There was video by a man who claimed to be a police officer, who declared what was done in Minneapolis to George Floyd was murder. And Derek Chauvin's cop buddies who were there did nothing to stop him.

The Floyd killing has caused thew kind of national outrage I don't think I've seen in my life.

I saw a video (on YouTube, not as parrt of the Caltrops postings) of a clearly upset black woman talking about buildings being burned. She pointed out, in civilized society, there is supposed to be a social contract, we have laws to protect everyone, and police to enforce those laws. And the police are supposed to treat the public responsibly, as professionals, and to respect everyone's rights. But what has happened is, they broke the social contract. Once they've broken the social contract, they've indicated they're not civilized, so it doesn't matter, we don't have to be either, "and I hope the rioters burn everything down."

I can understand her outrage, and she might be right. except if you burn your own neighborhood, you've got nothing.

Or they might get smart. One man was talking to his housekeeper during the 1965 Watts riot, and she spoke about the looting and rioting. 'They're stupid. If they were smart, they'd do that to Beverly Hills. The next ones will." The man decided to take heed of her comments, sold his property and moved out of the Los Angeles area.

Personally, I think this country is on a knife edge, and the last thing we need is stupid cops acting irresponsibly, and while they know they are being filmed. Police supervisors all over the country should be telling their officers to use extra tact, extra caution and be even more careful than usual.

Because, the cops have been lucky. Another stupid incident like the Floyd killing, and those looters will come to the same conclusion, that the social contract has been broken, they won't be robbing TV stores, they'll be robbing gun shops. And sooner or later these cops drive home, where they are an easy target for someone with a grudge. If you've got nothing to lose, then you're liable to do anything.

But let's hear your thoughts from the other side, police actions/accountability/responsibility/miconduct. What about the idea of "defunding" or "abolishing" police?

"Defunding" does not mean zeroing the police budget, it means reducing it and spending it on other things. Like if there is a call about a domestic dispute (like arguing) the 9-1-1 PSAP doesn't send two armed police officers, they send two people trained in conflict resolution. You want to de-escallate, allow both to calm down, maybe explain their side, and if they are not mad at each other (and aren't going to fight anymore) leave them be. If necessary (such as domestic partner abuse) then police can be called for what they are supposed to do, arrest him or her. (Surprisingly, I found out that female-on-male domestic abuse is not rare, it is only slightly less common than the inverse.)

Police are supposed to investigate crimes, collect evidence and arrest people. That's all. But so many other agencies that could respond instead have been eliminated that in some cases, police are the only resource available. Mental health treatment is so deficient that police and jails are the #1 handlers and providers of mental health services.

"Abolishing" police means you eliminate the police department (which eliminates the union contract making it impossible to fire brutal cops) and start something new where all current police have to reupply, and you might get rid of the worst bad apples.

But let's hear your thoughts from the other side, police actions/accountability/responsibility/miconduct. What about the idea of "defunding" or "abolishing" police?
This would have been an excellent post over there. Can I post it over there?
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Tdarcos »

Please feel free to post it anywhere you like.
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Tdarcos »

I overheard CBS news report a court has ordered the Minneapolis Police to institute immediate changes to police procedure. I investigated and discovered the following:

The State Of Minnesota's Department of Human Rights sued the Department for violating the state's Human Rights Act.

"Under the court order entered by Hennepin County District Court Judge Karen Janisch, the City of Minneapolis must implement the following measures:
  • Ban the use of all neck restraints and chokeholds.
  • Any police officer, regardless of tenure or rank, must report while still on scene if they observe another police officer use any unauthorized use of force, including any chokehold or neck restraint.
  • Any police officer, regardless of tenure or rank, must intervene by verbal and physical means if they observe another police officer use any unauthorized use of force, including any choke hold or neck restraint.
  • Only the Police Chief or the Chief’s designee at the rank of Deputy Chief may approve the use of crowd control weapons, including chemical agents, rubber bullets, flash-bangs, batons, and marking rounds, during protests and demonstrations.
  • The Police Chief must make timely and transparent discipline decisions for police officers as outlined in the order.
  • Civilian body worn camera footage analysts and investigators in the City’s Office of Police Conduct Review have the authority to proactively audit body worn camera footage and file or amend complaints on behalf of the Minneapolis Civil Rights Department."
Minneapolis NBC Station KARE Channel 11 reported.
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by AArdvark »

why did the old man put himself in harms way?

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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

AArdvark wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:00 am What did the old man say to the policeman to get himself pushed to the ground? There doesn't seem to be any kind of recording of that.
There isn't anything an elderly person can say to a retail employee or a health care worker or a financial industry worker that would make it so that - if the person in those industries responded by pushing them over and breaking their skull - they'd get to keep their job. Every corporation would fire that waiter, nurse or teller immediately.

Shouldn't this be even more true for "riot cops"? I mean, these were children cosplaying as riot cops, but still. Shouldn't more be expected of them than what we expect out of people that interface with the general public every day? Retro said he'd try to beat up an old person on this BBS if certain things were said and we all laughed at him. Shouldn't "riot cops" have better control over their emotions than Retro?
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by AArdvark »

Sure, the police certainly could have acted in a less aggressive fashion, I get that. There was no need to push the guy, there could have been a peaceful outcome.

But let me put some spin on it. The old man didn't have to stay there. He could have seen the danger he was confronting and left before he was ever in pushing range. Think of it as a force of nature (it's not, but imagine that it is for a moment) You don't protest a hurricane for moving inland and wrecking everything. You get the hell out of there. Hurricanes are dangerous. A gang of men are dangerous, no matter if it's Hell's Angels with sawed off billiard cues or police with badges and riot gear. The danger is there. No amount of words written on paper will protect you from a gang of men. It should not be like that except... men are men. A gang of men is halfway (or more) to jungle law. Recognising that before a confrontation happens will save you a lot of hurt. The man didn't recognise the danger he was in, he thought the law of peaceful protest would protect him and he was wrong.

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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey »

I mean, the part that I thought was a bit much was, as the old guy was about to crack his skull on the pavement, the cop that pushed him said, "HEADed this way??"
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Jizaboz »

Assuming we are talking about the same video, I was more aggravated by how immediately another cop went to the old man like “oh shit bro are you alright?” and immediately another cop pulls him away from helping him!

The cop that actually did the pushing didn’t look like he pushed all that hard.. most of us would have just taken a stumble back maybe but not just smack to the ground. The pusher cop had a look on his face immediately like “uh oh. Now I fucked up.”
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Tdarcos »

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:55 pm I mean, the part that I thought was a bit much was, as the old guy was about to crack his skull on the pavement, the cop that pushed him said, "HEADed this way??"
What song fits this incident? "Get Back" by The Beatles.
"Get back, Jo-Jo." But the cop took it as, "Get on your back, Jo-Jo!"

Or how about "Don't Stand So Close to Me" by The Police...
"Don't stand, don't stand, don't stand so close to me."
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by RetroRomper »

Alot of awful, terrible, misguided and truly sad opinions in this thread.

I love it!
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This has been a...
RETROROMPER CLASSIC TM

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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Billy Mays »

Who's the tough guy now?

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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Finsternis »

Note that when the officers who pushed the old man were disciplined, the other 67 members of their unit all resigned en masse.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... esponse-to
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Finsternis »

AArdvark wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:21 pm But let me put some spin on it. The old man didn't have to stay there. He could have seen the danger he was confronting and left before he was ever in pushing range. Think of it as a force of nature (it's not, but imagine that it is for a moment) You don't protest a hurricane for moving inland and wrecking everything. You get the hell out of there. Hurricanes are dangerous. A gang of men are dangerous
I know it's cliche, but that is exactly the kind of thinking that thugs want you to think. Fear is what they live for, their main tool of oppression.
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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Finsternis »

This video explains the problem pretty well.

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Re: Understanding police misconduct

Post by Finsternis »

This is another good one that explains things in simple terms for those people who don't know anything about the background of these issues. Good to post for right-wingers to see.

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