The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

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Tdarcos
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The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:52 pm

In The Matrix, Morpheus promises Neo he would show him the truth. It begins with a red pill and ends with him puking his guts out on the floor of the Nebuchadnezzar. The truth wasn't pretty, and the alleged real world was unpleasant.

I am an atheist. I have been for more than 28 years but I didn't know, I thought I was just an agnostic. I still am, but the point remains, either you actually believe in a specific god or gods or you do not. Most of you are partial atheists; you don't believe in Zeus, Wotan, Zarathustra or Buddha, or any of the thousands of gods that were invented over the centuries - except for one. A full atheist like myself, or Pinback, simply carries that non belief one god further, not believing in the god of Abraham, Mohammed and Christ.

As a nonbeliever in supernatural religions I must accept that we lack any evidence in life existing beyond this world. As far as we know, when we die, we go back to what we were before we were born, nonexistence. As Mark Twain reportedly said, "I didn't exist for billions of years before I was born. It didn't inconvenience me at all. I don't expect my nonexistence after I die to inconvenience me either."

INot believing in a god or an afterlife means I don't have the comfort of the delusions most religious people have been filled with. I have the truth, that the evidence doesn't support the existence of a heaven or hell. Not believing in a fantasy, but instead understanding of what reality is, is perhaps cold comfort to people who lose loved ones.

But it is the truth.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:06 pm

All you have to do is leave DNA around. One day technology will get to the point where they will be able to bring someone back just based on the DNA. Think of it as restoring old floppies.

Boom! There ya go.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:28 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:06 pm
All you have to do is leave DNA around. One day technology will get to the point where they will be able to bring someone back just based on the DNA. Think of it as restoring old floppies.

Boom! There ya go.
I presume you're kidding. Even if they find a way to clone someone - and that presumes they want to go to the effort and trouble to restore someone when there are already billions of people - ,a clone would be a totally new person. Again, we have no evidence of existence continuing beyond death. No one has ever come back.

Even those who claimed a Near-Death Experience in a controlled environment, where a secret clue was planted out of sight of the person, but clearly in view, the person claimed to pass that point, but never saw it. This strongly implies an NDE is strictly an in-brain event.

I really wish it were otherwise. But, as Dusty Springfield sang, "Wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin'" won't get you anywhere.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by pinback » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:00 am

You believe in the god of self, which is may more destructive than all the other religions combined.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:16 am

pinback wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:00 am
You believe in the god of self, which is may more destructive than all the other religions combined.
You wanna run that by me again? The evidence does not support that. Studies by the Federal Bureau of Prisons show only 1.5% of prisoners are atheist. The data does not support your claim. Abrahamic religions have killed or enslaved more people than any other cause.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by pinback » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm

The god of self also includes all other religions, which seek to define the relationship between "god" and "yourself". You can't do that if you haven't already succumbed to belief in the self, for which there is as much evidence as god. That being, zippo.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:50 pm

Tdarcos wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:28 am
I presume you're kidding. Even if they find a way to clone someone - and that presumes they want to go to the effort and trouble to restore someone when there are already billions of people - ,a clone would be a totally new person. Again, we have no evidence of existence continuing beyond death. No one has ever come back.
One guy came back. Jesus Christ. Maybe you heard of him?

I'm not a hugely religious guy, but there's been, what, 17 billion people in the history of the world? So even if it's a one in 17 billion chance to return from death, one guy doing it is not unheard of.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:35 pm

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:28 am
No one has ever come back.
One guy came back. Jesus Christ. Maybe you heard of him
Jonsey, there is no evidence Jesus ever existed. The Bible is not "evidence."

But let me consider the story of someone who was (1) Born on December 25; (2) Born of a virgin; (3) Had a Star in the east; (4) A teacher at 12; (5) Adorned by three kings; (6) Was baptized and entered the ministry at 30; and (7) Had 12 disciples. Do I have Jesus' story right? Bzzzzzt! That's not His story, it's the story of the Egyptian god Horus from 3000 BCE; Jesus' story is largely copied from much older stories.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:50 pm
I'm not a hugely religious guy, but there's been, what, 17 billion people in the history of the world?
More like 30 billion.
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:50 pm
So even if it's a one in 17 billion chance to return from death, one guy doing it is not unheard of.
Almost all religious myths or mythical religions have their god dying and coming back, in some form. That's about 10,000 claimed cases of reincarnation, 1 for every god humanity invented.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm

pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
The god of self also includes all other religions, which seek to define the relationship between "god" and "yourself".
Except you forget, I've already rejected all gods, or any other supernatural entity.
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
You can't do that if you haven't already succumbed to belief in the self, for which there is as much evidence as god. That being, zippo.
Wrong. You already have evidence of self-awareness. This conversation. It cannot exist unless both of us do, Q.E.D. The only alternative you have is to deny your own existence, shut up, and stay quiet.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:51 pm

Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:35 pm
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:50 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:28 am
No one has ever come back.
One guy came back. Jesus Christ. Maybe you heard of him
Jonsey, there is no evidence Jesus ever existed. The Bible is not "evidence."
Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:50 pm
I'm not a hugely religious guy, but there's been, what, 17 billion people in the history of the world?
More like 30 billion.
I honestly am not giving you a hard time - I am thrilled you are back - but I want to say that I love that you have stated that there's no evidence that Jesus - a man for whom there is no serious academic debate regarding his historical existence - ever existed, but you're certain down to the last digit how many humans there have ever been. ;)
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by pinback » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:06 pm

Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
The god of self also includes all other religions, which seek to define the relationship between "god" and "yourself".
Except you forget, I've already rejected all gods, or any other supernatural entity.
Wrong. I didn't forget that.
Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
You can't do that if you haven't already succumbed to belief in the self, for which there is as much evidence as god. That being, zippo.
Wrong.
I thought we all agreed that starting a response with "Wrong." is the most annoying thing you could possibly do on a BBS forum.
You already have evidence of self-awareness. This conversation. It cannot exist unless both of us do, Q.E.D. The only alternative you have is to deny your own existence, shut up, and stay quiet.
Wrong.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by RealNC » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:23 am

Tdarcos wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:28 am
Again, we have no evidence of existence continuing beyond death. No one has ever come back.
Maybe it's so amazing there that no one wants to come back. Or maybe some do come back, but end up in the loony bin. Or maybe this is all a simulation, and "coming back" means you insert another credit in the world simulation arcade.

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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by AArdvark » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:29 am

I always thought Jesus was a nice young man that went into his father's business

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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:38 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:51 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:35 pm
More like 30 billion.
I love that you have stated that there's no evidence that Jesus... but you're certain down to the last digit how many humans there have ever been. ;)
First, when one scientifically examines the so-called evidence for the existence of Jesus, it all falls apart. The supposed experts who claim there is evidence are not skeptics, willing to think critically, they are religious people with a vested interest in "proving" Jesus existed, regardless of the actual evidence.

Second, I did not say that I was certain the total world population was 30 billion, what I said was I thought your estimate of 17 was too low and it probably was a better estimate. We - I mean our species - don't even know how many people are currently on earth but the figure of about 7.1 billion is a good estimate. (I've raised the estimate of 7 billion to 7.1 to account for potential births since the estimate was announced around 2000.)

You may actually be correct at 17 but the estimates I've heard put the number closer to 30. It's like I mention I'm my book, Instrument of God that we don't really know how many people Joe Stalin had murdered but a reasonable estimate is 20 million.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:29 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:51 pm

I honestly am not giving you a hard time - I am thrilled you are back -
Jonsey, I have never felt you were giving me a hard time. I love conversations, and the best ones are where two people disagree on a subject but are willing to discuss it and maybe change their minds. Or it can be fun to hear the other person's opinions even if you know they won't change.

My girlfriend and I used to have fun arguments over religion. I, as a devout agnostic and ex-Christian, and she as a current Christian, would take turns as I would pick apart her arguments and she would try with mine. Both knew we weren't going to change the other's opinion but it was still fun.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:35 am

AArdvark wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:29 am
I always thought Jesus was a nice young man that went into his father's business
Potential cartoon: Building with a sign on it. "Tansin A. Darcos & Co., successors to Joseph Christ and Son, Since 30 B.C."
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:05 am

pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:06 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
The god of self also includes all other religions, which seek to define the relationship between "god" and "yourself".
Except you forget, I've already rejected all gods, or any other supernatural entity.
Wrong. I didn't forget that.
Apparently you did, or else you did not read what I wrote. I said I reject all gods, therefore this "god of self" is rejected as I do not believe in any God. You're not thinking.
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
You can't do that if you haven't already succumbed to belief in the self, for which there is as much evidence as god. That being, zippo.
Wrong.
I thought we all agreed that starting a response with "Wrong." is the most annoying thing you could possibly do on a BBS forum.
I know of no such agreement. Please provide the thread where such agreement was discussed.
You already have evidence of self-awareness. This conversation. It cannot exist unless both of us do, Q.E.D. The only alternative you have is to deny your own existence, shut up, and stay quiet.
Wrong.
Oh you can do better than that. That's a cop out, non response, and a non-answer. It shows clearly you know I'm right since you can't even come up with even a weak response.
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:06 am

pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:06 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
The god of self also includes all other religions, which seek to define the relationship between "god" and "yourself".
Except you forget, I've already rejected all gods, or any other supernatural entity.
Wrong. I didn't forget that.
Apparently you did, or else you did not read what I wrote. I said I reject all gods, therefore this "god of self" is rejected as I do not believe in any God. You're not thinking.
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
Tdarcos wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:45 pm
pinback wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:41 pm
You can't do that if you haven't already succumbed to belief in the self, for which there is as much evidence as god. That being, zippo.
Wrong.
I thought we all agreed that starting a response with "Wrong." is the most annoying thing you could possibly do on a BBS forum.
I know of no such agreement. Please provide the thread where such agreement was discussed.
You already have evidence of self-awareness. This conversation. It cannot exist unless both of us do, Q.E.D. The only alternative you have is to deny your own existence, shut up, and stay quiet.
Wrong.
Oh you can do better than that. That's a cop out, non response, and a non-answer. It shows clearly you know I'm right since you can't even come up with even a weak response.
"With great power, comes great… electricity bill."

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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:29 am

RealNC wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:23 am
Tdarcos wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:28 am
Again, we have no evidence of existence continuing beyond death. No one has ever come back.
Maybe it's so amazing there that no one wants to come back. Or maybe some do come back, but end up in the loony bin. Or maybe this is all a simulation, and "coming back" means you insert another credit in the world simulation arcade.
I said something very similar in the preface to my book, Instrument of God, but I'll just include a quote:
I really don’t hold with knowing the future, even my own, which is short... I mean, if we knew for a fact there was an afterlife, and if the afterlife was bliss eternal, we’d all commit suicide in order to enjoy it.

- Mandemous, Battle for the Planet of the Apes
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Re: The truth isn't always better but it is more honest

Post by Tdarcos » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:20 pm

Another example comes from Candi Station, Young Hearts Run Free, 1976: What's the sense in sharing, this one and only life...
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