Pet Sentience

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Casual Observer
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Pet Sentience

Post by Casual Observer » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:42 am

Ice Cream Jonsey wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:40 pm
It's where I tried to train a rescue dog and failed
I recently had a conversation with a lesbian woman at the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco who says she spent over $10k on training for a rescue dog to stop him from biting people and certain other dogs. Am I being a callous asshole to think that maybe it's more compassionate to euthanize animals who have been abused and misstrained and as such aren't able to get along in a civil household? These animals are hurt, in pain, abused such that they'll act out as any sentient animal would after such horror. Why not let them sleep and focus scarce resources on saving less damaged "pets". Why are we treating them like they're humans and going to miss "the future"? Why are we acting like we don't have the right to decide when to make that decision?

Not throwing shade at ICJ but maybe the rescue dog shouldn't have been cleared to be adopted into a home with cats. I went to PetSmart and they wouldn't sell me a snake unless I told them that I had a big enough tank. Maybe rescue shelters shouldn't worry so much about their $30 adoption fee as much as learning about how the potential "pet" might fit into the environment. If they suspect violent behaviour then perhaps they should only adopt to owners with special provisions. I refuse to donate to pet shelters because I think they need to change their entire attitud about matching homes with animals.

What do you guys think? Should shelters do more to make sure that a potentially damaged pet can succeed in the new environment?

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RealNC
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by RealNC » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:10 am

I'm wondering about the "lesbian woman" part. What's the significance of it? Also, could it have been a lesbian man?

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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by pinback » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:08 am

Casual Observer wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:42 am
Am I being a callous asshole
Not necessarily.
I refuse to donate to pet shelters
Okay, yes.
Above all else... We shall go on... And continue!

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bryanb
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by bryanb » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Rehabilitation in general isn't an easy thing. Bitey dogs may remain bitey dogs. Drug addicts may remain drug-addicted. Child molesters usually remain child molesters. Why do we even try? Because there's still a life that's worth something in there. The joy that one reformed dog would be able to bring the world is potentially enormous and not easy to calculate. I would say it could easily be worth more than $10,000. Your argument hinges on the idea that dogs and cats are fungible commodities, but every pet I've ever has had a unique personality and brought something new to my life. Chances are the dog you allegedly talked about with the lesbian woman hasn't even done anything all that bad yet which is why it's still alive. It's usually not up to the owner to decide whether or not a vicious dog that's attacked people is put down.

I think the asshole question is definitely answered by the fact you brought up Frobozz at all in this conversation. It's not at all unusual for a dog that hasn't been raised around cats to want to attack cats. Not all dogs would do it, but many would. We're talking about nature and primordial instincts here. A dog that's never been abused or neglected could potentially still be dangerous. Jonsey realized this and took precautions to keep the dog and his cats separated. The defenses didn't hold and a tragedy happened, but that doesn't make the dog evil incarnate or incapable of being a good pet for someone. What happened was a fluke. You could roll the dice and run through the scenario again and it's possible that dog wouldn't necessarily get downstairs again or maybe Frobozz would've found somewhere to hide if he'd had another chance. Life's brutal and there's no restore function. If the shelter had told Jonsey, "This dog shouldn't be around cats," it wouldn't have told him anything he didn't already know.

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The Happiness Engine
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by The Happiness Engine » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:54 pm

The sentience question isn't about the pet, it's about the human. The judgement is more on what a sentient being believes is moral in relation to behavior to animals, and how any individual animal's happiness or pain relates to that moral framework.

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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by Casual Observer » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:09 pm

RealNC wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:10 am
I'm wondering about the "lesbian woman" part. What's the significance of it? Also, could it have been a lesbian man?
She was definitely a lesbian. By her clothing and the fact she hit on my wife three times in front of me.

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The Happiness Engine
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by The Happiness Engine » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:39 pm

Casual Observer wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:09 pm
She was definitely a lesbian. By her clothing and the fact she hit on my wife three times in front of me.
"If she ain't swallowing dude-meat, it ain't no cheat."

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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by Casual Observer » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:26 am

The Happiness Engine wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:39 pm
Casual Observer wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:09 pm
She was definitely a lesbian. By her clothing and the fact she hit on my wife three times in front of me.
"If she ain't swallowing dude-meat, it ain't no cheat."
Agreed. I've always been fine with her 2 "woman experiences".

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Ice Cream Jonsey
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by Ice Cream Jonsey » Sat May 18, 2019 2:49 pm

Casual Observer wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:42 am
Not throwing shade at ICJ but maybe the rescue dog shouldn't have been cleared to be adopted into a home with cats. I went to PetSmart and they wouldn't sell me a snake unless I told them that I had a big enough tank. Maybe rescue shelters shouldn't worry so much about their $30 adoption fee as much as learning about how the potential "pet" might fit into the environment. If they suspect violent behaviour then perhaps they should only adopt to owners with special provisions. I refuse to donate to pet shelters because I think they need to change their entire attitude about matching homes with animals.
No shade taken. It's been about five months and I think about what happened often. The blame goes in almost its entirety to me, because at any point I could have stopped the murderous dog from being in our house. There were warning signs and there were other actors at play, but the responsibility was chiefly mine.

We had one in home visit where PD did mostly fine with the other dogs for about a half hour. My brother was over, I am sure if he is around and reads this he can give a more realistic perspective of what happened, but my impression was that:

1) The dogs got along mostly okay.
2) PD, the rescue dog, went berserk when she saw one of the cats.

My wife really wanted us to have another dog and she is someone that "rescues." Hell, the same thing inside her that made her okay with my rough edges manifests itself in being okay with an animal with rough edges. I honestly thought I could train the lunging out of the dog. But there was someone from the rescue at the visit. I would give a small sliver of responsibility to them for not shutting that shit down as soon as the dog went crazy barking at Reggie on that first in home visit. They didn't do that, trusting us to know what the hell we were doing. Not assessing blame (except directed to me) but that's how it went down.

There is a philosophy of management where nobody can be saved, everyone ought to hit the ground running, do their job, be a finished product and the instant you don't produce you're out. There is another where everyone involved should be saved, identify what a person can do instead of what they can't and put people in positions where they can succeed. Certainly thinking about all of this during this week, I have probably come to the conclusion that some animals just can't be saved.
the dark and gritty...Ice Cream Jonsey!

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AArdvark
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by AArdvark » Sat May 18, 2019 2:59 pm

Aren't there enough dogs and cats to propagate the species where all the people can have new pets rather than used ones?

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RealNC
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by RealNC » Sat May 18, 2019 7:16 pm

AArdvark wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:59 pm
Aren't there enough dogs and cats to propagate the species
There are, but they can't mate with each other.

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AArdvark
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by AArdvark » Sat May 18, 2019 8:09 pm

You know what I mean!

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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by pinback » Sun May 19, 2019 6:13 am

AArdvark wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:59 pm
Aren't there enough dogs and cats to propagate the species where all the people can have new pets rather than used ones?
What do you do with the, as you say, "used" ones?
Above all else... We shall go on... And continue!

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Flack
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by Flack » Sun May 19, 2019 6:16 am

"Jack Flack always escapes." -Davey Osborne

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AArdvark
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by AArdvark » Sun May 19, 2019 3:03 pm

The returned cats and dogs that have issues.
There are enough puppies and kittens that we can all have one and teach them kindness and love.

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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by pinback » Sun May 19, 2019 3:35 pm

AArdvark wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 3:03 pm
The returned cats and dogs that have issues.
That isn't an English sentence. While we are all getting our new puppies and kittens, what do you suggest we do with all of the dogs and cats that never found a home, and that are currently packing the shelters from wall to wall?
Above all else... We shall go on... And continue!

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AArdvark
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by AArdvark » Sun May 19, 2019 4:05 pm

Kill them. Kill them all. Is that what you want to hear?

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Flack
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by Flack » Sun May 19, 2019 5:42 pm

The problem is, after you kill them, you gotta bury them. And once you bury them, other people don't wanna be buried near them. I can tell you, I don't want to be buried in a pet cemetery. I don't want to live my life again.
"Jack Flack always escapes." -Davey Osborne

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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by pinback » Sun May 19, 2019 7:30 pm

AArdvark wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:05 pm
Kill them. Kill them all. Is that what you want to hear?
I wanted to hear your actual thoughts/opinions on the matter. Was that it? Kill all of the dogs and cats that are too old to start a life with a new owner?
Above all else... We shall go on... And continue!

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AArdvark
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Re: Pet Sentience

Post by AArdvark » Mon May 20, 2019 3:06 am

Bob Barker was telling me the other day that we have too many dogs and cats. I suggest that we take steps to reduce those surplus dogs and cats. Eliminating those surplus dogs and cats will solve the problem.


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